Social Tennessee lawmakers pass bill to allow teachers to be armed

[Sinister]

You don't know that now when you're in Walmart.

To be fair, people in Wal-Mart arent all agents of the State. Let's not imply transparency is a bad thing.

 

[spamking]

The first one had a smart design because everything is essentially behind the office. To go deep into the school, you have to go past the office itself. Add a buzzer door right there, or perhaps a keypad door that uses student ID #'s (that expire if the kid isn't in school) adds another layer a tentative shooter would have to get past. Side doors weren't left open. The 2nd school my kids went to had a magnetic gate, and both entry points to the school were next to each other. It's difficult to get in if no one is there, the office has to release the magnet so the gate can be opened. Its iron, and if someone tried to shoot it, it would draw a lot of attention just from the noise. The middle school I went to had those auto-lock doors and entry on one side only. During the day there was only one door left open and all the teachers had walkie talkies.

This is how every school should be designed.

 

[spamking]

To be fair, people in Wal-Mart arent all agents of the State. Let's not imply transparency is a bad thing.

I'm not sure why that matters. If the school doesn't want you in they can keep you out now. Do you think that an armed agent of the State would just take it upon themselves one day to not let you check your kid out early for a doctor's appointment?

 

[Sinister]

You're completely ignoring where I've said that physical security should be to the point where an armed teacher would be the last line of defense. Again, I'm not saying the teachers should be the first responders in this case unless it's absolutely necessary. It should never get to the point of a teacher needing to pull a firearm to defend their classroom, but if it does the limited entry and locked fire doors, etc. would offer an advantage to the teachers. I think you are greatly discounting what lengths a teacher would go to to defend their kids.

You don't know what type of training someone has . . . . some NRA-certified shooters who are everyday Joes working in an office or heck, maybe even coaching your kid's football team with more training under their belts than some cops.

We both know what other influences are in play when it comes to guns and whether they deter anything or not.

I'm not ignoring that being as I made the same contention about security. I am addressing the soecific issue of the armed teacher vs shooter happening inside the classroom. I would never be comfortable as a parent counting on a mere protective instinct implied for an under-incentivized position. Nor do I agree that teachers should even be obligated to do that, or that the legal/political landscape should suggest to them that live combat is now in their job description.

And people with extensive training, whose occupations it is to engage with this level of violence, still falter.

Yes and my point was that a shooter who was constructed a manifesto and planned to die is going to go for maximum damage, the threat of a gun may change the conditions of their attack, bit that's all it does. What I would be anticipating next if I were in law enforcement isnt even shooters inside the school, it will be shooters attacking schools from a distance when the school lets out, more like the festival shooters do, who are also never deterred by the tentative presence of guns.

 

[Sinister]

I'm not sure why that matters. If the school doesn't want you in they can keep you out now. Do you think that an armed agent of the State would just take it upon themselves one day to not let you check your kid out early for a doctor's appointment?

Uh, hate to be the bearer of bad news but I encountered massive resistance from a school here for checking my Son out early because I wouldn't have been able to pick him up later that day (and no one else would have been able to, either). They said that wasnt a good enough reason. They let him go, but I had to fuss with them. So yeah, I've absolutely encountered a State agent simply not wanting to give me my kid when I wanted him.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Class is delayed for 15 minutes. Mr. Smith has gotta go dome Johnny for acting up.

Next Tennessee will need to arm students to protect themselves from the armed teachers.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Uh, hate to be the bearer of bad news but I encountered massive resistance from a school here for checking my Son out early because I wouldn't have been able to pick him up later that day (and no one else would have been able to, either). They said that wasnt a good enough reason. They let him go, but I had to fuss with them. So yeah, I've absolutely encountered a State agent simply not wanting to give me my kid when I wanted him.

Same with my niece. Believe its age related for it disrupts the entire class.

 

[jk7707]

That exactly how we feel about the rest of you guys who see it differently too . . . so glad we could all come to some agreement here.

Sad that you think that about so many of the teachers in these schools, considering the vast majority of them oppose batshit ideas like this.

 

[oldshadow]

First most of the arguments against this are basing their argument on have a "no guns allowed" sign is going to stop shootings. That's stupid and false.

The requirements to carry in school are going to be strick so the whole "some teachers going to get pissed" and start killing students is also bullshit.

So the only real arguments are safe storage, training and what is expected of an armed teacher.

The students should never see the guns and who is carrying. The only people that should know is the administration and the police
The police should have there ID included an updated photo. Storage should be on their person always concealed properly.

The training is a big thing. I personally think it should be lock and protect not room clearing and hunting.


Lock the students in the room and protect with the weapon or if the shooter starts in the area they are then engage and take them out.

Room clearing and hunting should be left upto the pros. Well unless you are going to give these teachers SWAT level training.

Physical security should always be the first line of defense.

 

[oldshadow]

Double

 

[spamking]

Sad that you think that about so many of the teachers in these schools, considering the vast majority of them oppose batshit ideas like this.

It's just as sad that you're letting your hatred for guns blind you to their benefits.

What improvements to school security would you support?

 

[jk7707]

It's just as sad that you're letting your hatred for guns blind you to their benefits.

What improvements to school security would you support?

I don't have a hatred of guns. I have a hatred for gun nuts, whose only solution to gun violence always involves more guns.

There's a reason why 70+% of teachers think this is a bad idea. Because it's a bad idea.

You can add SROs and lock buildings. We've been doing it for years. And school shootings still happen just as often. Having teachers armed isn't going to change that.

 

[spamking]

I'm not ignoring that being as I made the same contention about security. I am addressing the soecific issue of the armed teacher vs shooter happening inside the classroom.

And I'm specifically saying that the teacher would be the last line of defense at the door to prevent entry into the classroom. If it even got to that point.

I would never be comfortable as a parent counting on a mere protective instinct implied for an under-incentivized position. Nor do I agree that teachers should even be obligated to do that, or that the legal/political landscape should suggest to them that live combat is now in their job description.

But you're fine with them being left defenseless and still have that protective instinct kick in and die because you didn't feel they were devoted enough or compensated enough to really care about and protect their students?

Do you seriously think so little of teachers that you have the impression that most would save themselves instead of trying to protect their students?

And people with extensive training, whose occupations it is to engage with this level of violence, still falter.

They do. Just like defenseless people die when they are in the middle of an attack on an unprotected location.

Yes and my point was that a shooter who was constructed a manifesto and planned to die is going to go for maximum damage, the threat of a gun may change the conditions of their attack, bit that's all it does.

Well in that case let's just keep the teachers defenseless.

What I would be anticipating next if I were in law enforcement isnt even shooters inside the school, it will be shooters attacking schools from a distance when the school lets out, more like the festival shooters do, who are also never deterred by the tentative presence of guns.

I don't know that you can account for every scenario. That's not what this is trying to do. This is looking to give a teacher a fighting chance when they're the last line of defense for their classroom.

 

[spamking]

I don't have a hatred of guns. I have a hatred for gun nuts, whose only solution to gun violence always involves more guns.

You can't really fight back against someone who is armed with a firearm using only a #2 pencil. It's helpful to be able to arm yourself.

There's a reason why 70+% of teachers think this is a bad idea. Because it's a bad idea.

So let the 30% who might support this idea protect the 70% who do.

You can add SROs and lock buildings. We've been doing it for years. And school shootings still happen just as often. Having teachers armed isn't going to change that.

Schools had worse security before Columbine and shootings rarely if ever happened. Guns were prevalent back then too. If as you say having an SRO and locking buildings isn't working then that is why we need to progress forward with other solutions. Gun Free Zone signs definitely don't work.

 

[spamking]

Uh, hate to be the bearer of bad news but I encountered massive resistance from a school here for checking my Son out early because I wouldn't have been able to pick him up later that day (and no one else would have been able to, either). They said that wasnt a good enough reason. They let him go, but I had to fuss with them. So yeah, I've absolutely encountered a State agent simply not wanting to give me my kid when I wanted him.

It was the school secretary though and not an armed SRO right? You're not alone in being treated like you're causing some major disruption in their learning when checking them out early.

How often do you check him out early? Did they explain why or were they just giving you a hard time? Is riding the bus home as a backup, not an option?

 

[Sinister]

And I'm specifically saying that the teacher would be the last line of defense at the door to prevent entry into the classroom. If it even got to that point.



But you're fine with them being left defenseless and still have that protective instinct kick in and die because you didn't feel they were devoted enough or compensated enough to really care about and protect their students?

Do you seriously think so little of teachers that you have the impression that most would save themselves instead of trying to protect their students?



They do. Just like defenseless people die when they are in the middle of an attack on an unprotected location.



Well in that case let's just keep the teachers defenseless.



I don't know that you can account for every scenario. That's not what this is trying to do. This is looking to give a teacher a fighting chance when they're the last line of defense for their classroom.

You're painting a bit of a disingenuous picture here and behaving as if a gun is the ONLY method of defense once a shooter enters or comes near a classroom. Defense is not merely standing your ground, I've posed escape as an alternative numerous times. The more bullets flying around an enclosed area the more likely unintended casualties are to happen.

It's not my opinion that teachers dont want to engage in live combat, they have more than sufficiently voiced their own agreement with that position. And I'd expect literally anyone to have some modicum of self-preservation, or to at least think about it in the face of combat.

The teachers are not defenseless, they are just "as good as" if they dont have a gun, in your opinion.

 

[Sinister]

It was the school secretary though and not an armed SRO right? You're not alone in being treated like you're causing some major disruption in their learning when checking them out early.

How often do you check him out early? Did they explain why or were they just giving you a hard time? Is riding the bus home as a backup, not an option?

It was the office, but what does that matter? In the scenario debated any of them could pull a gun on me once agitated (Cops do this all the time) while being less trained.

I only did that once because of a circumstance, and explained to them why. He was in 1st grade, my wife had to be at work and I only had a small window that day to pick him up. Riding the bus would not help as no one was at the house. He HAD to come with me, and they did everything they could to try to convince me I couldn't have my kid.

 

[heloder]

Um, if you have a room full of 3rd graders with no place to run or hide and they can't secure their classroom what are THEIR odds of getting shot when a gunman gains entry and their teacher is unarmed and can't fight back?

Third graders in school with nowhere to run or hide while gunmen are on the loose? Wow what kind of dystopic hellhole are you describing here?

That's right, baby! Murica! Fuck yeah!

 

[djacobox372]

People really want their kids to be supervised by an armed underpaid, undertrained rambo-wanna-be?

 

[Poon Goon]

The goal is to discourage attacks and keep unauthorized people out . . . not lock them in so they can't leave.

In the film Lean on Me principal Joe Clark, played by Morgan Freeman, got in trouble for chaining the school doors shut from the inside to keep undesirables out of the school. Fortunately technology now exists that makes chaining the door shut unnecessary.