The definitive "how to finish a heel hook" thread

[DeepFry]

Decent'ish breakdown vid here highlighting the finish comes from hip extension, no twisting.

However it doesn't highlight the importance of getting the correct angle of attack into the lateral knee (vs just regular hip-in extension).

 

[Da Speeit]

 

[DeepFry]

lol - PhD in physio and world class competitor - can't even teach a heel hook correctly.

......



He advocates rotation of the tibia/fibia inside the knee capsule.

That's a modified outside toe hold, that is NOT a heel hook.

i.e. that's the sub you can't perform correctly in training for fear of injuring your partner, the one that fails mostly in competition (check out the Ian Entwistle thread), etc.

.....

That was the whole point of this thread, to illustrate this sub continues to be taught incorrectly in even high level schools all over the world.

 

[Da Speeit]

lol - PhD in physio and world class competitor - can't even teach a heel hook correctly.

......



He advocates rotation of the tibia/fibia inside the knee capsule.

That's a modified outside toe hold, that is NOT a heel hook.

i.e. that's the sub you can't perform correctly in training for fear of injuring your partner, the one that fails mostly in competition (check out the Ian Entwistle thread), etc.

.....

That was the whole point of this thread, to illustrate that sub continues to be taught incorrectly in even high level schools all over the world.

you're joking right?

 

[DeepFry]

you're joking right?

Joking how?

His premise for finish is that of an outside toe hold, performed badly at that (think of trying to unscrew a nut from a bolt using a really short spanner, vs a long one).

A heel hook is not finished by rotation of the tibia/fibia in the knee joint.

NOT finished like that.

This is BAD TECHNIQUE.

I can't figure out if the guy actually believes that's the right way to teach it, or if he's being a douche and perpetuating bad finishing technique; some BJJ dorks are deviant like that.

 

[Da Speeit]

Joking how?

His premise for finish is that of an outside toe hold, performed badly at that (think of trying to unscrew a nut from a bolt using a really short spanner, vs a long one).

A heel hook is not finished by rotation of the tibia/fibia in the knee joint.

NOT finished like that.

This is BAD TECHNIQUE.

I can't figure out if the guy actually believes that's the right way to teach it, or if he's being a douche and perpetuating bad finishing technique; some BJJ dorks are deviant like that.

Man, this is like the perfect satire of knowitall weaboo MMA fans.

 

[DeepFry]

This thread needs a heel-hook highlight vid:

 

[DeepFry]

Man, this is like the perfect satire of knowitall weaboo MMA fans.

It's physics + anatomy bruh (I'm a physio too by trade BTW).

What he's doing is a different and dangerous submission, because it's applied with such poor control it would generally injure training partners.

This is it applied in practice and oh looky - no finish.

Giles may be a good competitor but he sucks as an instructor.

BJJ dorks give me creeps, frankly.

 

[Da Speeit]

It's physics + anatomy bruh (I'm a physio too by trade BTW).

What he's doing is a different and dangerous submission, because it's applied with such poor control it would generally injure training partners.

The control is perfect and and he shows how to set them up to finish without even finishing.

 

[Da Speeit]

This is it applied in practice and oh looky - no finish.

Well, i mean if someone who isn't Lachlan applied his technique and it didn't work, then i guess the technique doesn't work and he's a shitty instructor.
You win.

Can you post some more imanari videos?

 

[shunyata]

Well, i mean if someone who isn't Lachlan applied his technique and it didn't work, then i guess the technique doesn't work and he's a shitty instructor.
You win.

Can you post some more imanari videos?

Is this the old, someone escaped an armbar in a fight with no Gracies, therefore Rickson is bad hypothesis?

 

[DeepFry]

Is this the old, someone escaped an armbar in a fight with no Gracies, therefore Rickson is bad hypothesis?

How can you possibly advocate that as being a correct heel hook finish?

You can't use it in training for fear of injuring your training partner.

When that's applied, you don't actually feel it until your knee is blown out.

It's completely impracticle.

It rarely works in competition unless you're a baby gorilla like Dean Lister.

It goes against the entire principle of the heel hook being the most efficient joint lock, as it is SUPER inefficient (think unscrewing a nut with a short spanner analogy).

Whole point of this thread was to illustrate how wrong that means to finish is, and ridicule those who advocate it (PS - I hate uppity self entitled BJJ dorks who think they're tough).

 

[Da Speeit]

How can you possibly advocate that as being a correct heel hook finish?

You can't use it in training for fear of injuring your training partner.

When that's applied, you don't actually feel it until your knee is blown out.

It's completely impracticle.

It rarely works in competition unless you're a baby gorilla like Dean Lister.

It goes against the entire principle of the heel hook being the most efficient joint lock, as it is SUPER inefficient (think unscrewing a nut with a short spanner analogy).

Whole point of this thread was to illustrate how wrong that means to finish is, and ridicule those who advocate it (PS - I hate uppity self entitled BJJ dorks who think they're tough).

I use it everyday.
I find it to be the most efficient.

 

[DeepFry]

WTF?



"It works like a side knee bar...."

This is completely different finishing principle to his other vid.

Okay so here, he basically says what I've been saying all along, but there is no rotation here.

Unless he's saying, you rotate it as a means to position it for optimal hip thrust....?

But his other vid clearly illustrates "it's finish via rotation".....

 

[Da Speeit]

WTF?



"It works like a side knee bar...."

This is completely different finishing principle to his other vid.

Okay so here, he basically says what I've been saying all along, but there is no rotation here.

it's almost like different positions and reactions require different angles, finishes and holds.

 

[DeepFry]

The bottom line is the concept of heel hook finish his hip thrust into the lateral/side of the knee.

Maybe some twisting to set that up?

But it's NOT finished via the conventional idea of twisting the leg, at least not finished efficient and correctly that way.

 

[DeepFry]

What he's saying here seems to be, rotate the tibia/lower-leg, by lateral body movement - instead of using the hands to rotate.

.....

But, in the other vid he modifies that to say, we get that "rotation", to setup for the inward hip thrust.

....

Alright so, again suffice to say, true clarity on the finishing mechanism is ellusive, when it's been taught historically.

Finish = hip thrust.

Setup for finish = rotation, but preferably getting that rotation by moving our body laterally.

 

[cheachea]

It's interesting how there seems to be a bunch of different variations / finishes to the Heel Hook. Some having a different name for the exact same move, Honey Hole, 411, 80/20, Saddle :

• Outside Ashi Garami
• Inside 50/50
• Inside Sankaku
• Backside 50/50
• Outside / Catch / Reaper Style
• Inside / Cross Ashi Garami
• Belly Down Inside
• Belly Down Outside

Etc.


And then also various different gripping methods :

• Gable Grip
• Butterfly Grip
• Reverse Butterfly Grip

Etc.

 

[shunyata]

How can you possibly advocate that as being a correct heel hook finish?

You can't use it in training for fear of injuring your training partner.

When that's applied, you don't actually feel it until your knee is blown out.

It's completely impracticle.

It rarely works in competition unless you're a baby gorilla like Dean Lister.

It goes against the entire principle of the heel hook being the most efficient joint lock, as it is SUPER inefficient (think unscrewing a nut with a short spanner analogy).

Whole point of this thread was to illustrate how wrong that means to finish is, and ridicule those who advocate it (PS - I hate uppity self entitled BJJ dorks who think they're tough).

And yet you end up being ridiculed.


Do you actually have training experience with what you're discussing or is this all theory with no practice?

Many of the people you're trying to "illustrate" these concepts to have extensive experience with the whole leg lock game including what works and doesn't work for their body types in competition and in the gym.

So, what's your jiu jitsu and submission grappling training background?

Have you trained in gyms that specialize in or at least pay a fair amount of attention to leglocks?

Have you had extensive experience rolling live vs brown and belts playing the leg lock game, or equivalents (sambo master of sport, etc)?

You've got this funny mix of correct and incorrect concepts because you're trying to simply things down to the form of "all X are Y" when that's not always true.


You seem to have this hangup about the mechanics of an outside toe hold and if a heel hook were applied with a similar torque but is there really a history of that being all that dangerous in mma? Not really, not compared to getting hit in the head at least.


Frankly your whole shtick comes across as an armchair fan who thinks they know it all but has not actually trained much if any.

If you're all you say you are and more (and we're simply failing to understand your brilliance), film a seminar, reach out to Bernardio Faria and BJJ Fanatics about hosting your dvd, go win some tournaments.



PS: Thank you Lachlan! You put up great content on a regular basis and we do appreciate it. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Da Speeit]

What he's saying here seems to be, rotate the tibia/lower-leg, by lateral body movement - instead of using the hands to rotate.

.....

But, in the other vid he modifies that to say, we get that "rotation", to setup for the inward hip thrust.

....

Alright so, again suffice to say, true clarity on the finishing mechanism is ellusive, when it's been taught historically.

Finish = hip thrust.

Setup for finish = rotation, but preferably getting that rotation by moving our body laterally.

Buddy, the point of a heel hook is to rip someone's fucking knee apart. To do that, you need to pinch your hips tight and rotate them in the opposite direction your opponent is facing. It appears that the most efficient way to to do that is to get a firm hold of the foot, attach it to your body and rotate your hips.

It doesn't come across like you've trained, so I'm just dropping this in good faith; the best leglockers in the game seem to be on to this pattern of movement and it seems to be working very well against top tier athletes in the sport of BJJ and in MMA.

If you disagree, cool. If you don't think it's optimal, cool. But there are literally dozens of examples at the highest level and hundreds of examples scattered around in other tiers of competition over the past 5 years or so that have settled the efficiency and potential of this movement.