Social Trans swimmer smashing NCAA records, teammate speaks out

[Rod1]

And this is why I don't agree with many of you here. People want to rob the world of choice. They disagree with the choice some coach or athletic board made. Fine. They're entitled to disagree with that choice. My issue is when they started implying that because they don't like a choice someone else made, that we should step in and use the government to remove the ability to choose.

I said this in another thread -- there's a growing set of people who cannot simply disagree with something without also arguing that the things they disagree with are also detrimental to society at large. They don't like X, therefore X is a societal failing and should be eliminated. They don't care that someone else likes X. And because they can't convince that other person to also dislike X, they try to leverage the government to win an argument that they can't win in the public square. John can't convince Luke to buy chocolate ice cream so he wants the government to eliminate all other flavors.

And that is something I always look at more closely. Sometimes it is warranted but far too often it's just people who can't find any other way to win an argument. And in those circumstances, something should be said.

This is like saying we dont need enviromental regulation because companies can choose not to pollute.

Coaches are paid a lot to win and if it was legal they would put a wig on the male team and claim they are trans in order to win.

As much as we claim we care about fair play, winning in sports is like profit for a corporation.

I mean look at the extent we need to go to fight against PEDs.

 

[koquerelle]

Like with so many things, I see a LOT of middle ground here to be explored. But I don't see very many people willing to consider it.

You think her justifications are middle ground?
legit lol
She/he and Papa Chulo are the 2 sides of a coin. They'll justify anything for their team.
"Duke crushes other colleges so it's okay to have trans women compete."
It's a retarded argument.

 

[Rod1]

This is an irrelevant thread, FINA changed the rules and now Lia Thomas can't compete, the stupidity of trying to look for inclusion into an area that naturally is not inclusive (high performance sports) was retarded to begin with.

It only served to fuel anti-trans sentiment on people.

 

[panamaican]

It does anecdotally, they train like crazy and sacrifice their time and lives ….

So does every athlete. This weekend past, my son's soccer team was playing in a tournament where there were a bunch of teams a year younger. Those younger kids got run over by the older, more experienced, teams. Every single one of the parents on our side recognized that it wasn't a fair competition and that we shouldn't judge the younger team based on if they won or how close the game was. We know the competition wasn't fair.

That doesn't undermine the time those kids spent training, the sacrifice of time or money along the way. People watching the competitions aren't stupid, they know the difference between the competitors. They know that a MtF athlete blowing out natural women athletes isn't a fair competition, they're not going to judge the woman's drive to win, skills, etc. based on that.

 

[panamaican]

I don't completely agree about the lack of significant social repercussion. But even if I did, that would be a mighty shitty reason to engage in an unfair practice (We know it's blatantly unfair, but there are not significant social repercussions, so we are going to look the other way). I'd wager you'd have a hard time looking the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place biological women in eye when you say that to them.

You can let a M2F trans person train with a women's team and swim in the women's races without giving them the Gold Medal when they win and compare their time to women's times. All I am suggesting is that there are better and more fair ways ways no one is discussing.

See my post right above this one.

Regarding the existence of other ways to handle this. I won't disagree, if people want to do that, they should. I just don't see it as a necessary issue to resolve.

 

[Day Drinking]

This is like saying we dont need enviromental regulation because companies can choose not to pollute.

Coaches are paid a lot to win and if it was legal they would put a wig on the male team and claim they are trans in order to win.

As much as we claim we care about fair play, winning in sports is like profit for a corporation.

I mean look at the extent we need to go to fight against PEDs.

We don't NEED to fight PEDs. Lots of people think we shouldnt

 

[Ichibanner]

It only served to fuel anti-trans sentiment on people.

What "anti-trans sentiment" are you talking about? I'm being honest. What specifically was said due to this issue that had to do with negative attitude towards trans people themselves and not the issue of fair competition? I'm curious as to what you believe you witnessed.

 

[The_Renaissance]

Sexual Fetishist William Thomas.

 

[cooks1]

You think her justifications are middle ground?
legit lol
She/he and Papa Chulo are the 2 sides of a coin. They'll justify anything for their team.
"Duke crushes other colleges so it's okay to have trans women compete."
It's a retarded argument.

No- I don't think her justifications are middle ground.

Literally no one is spending any time in the middle ground.

 

[Mr Holmes]

This is an irrelevant thread, FINA changed the rules and now Lia Thomas can't compete, the stupidity of trying to look for inclusion into an area that naturally is not inclusive (high performance sports) was retarded to begin with.

It only served to fuel anti-trans sentiment on people.

Why do you think it took them so long to change the rules?

 

[cooks1]

You are talking what is possible (and its true) but not what will happen. Coaches are paid to win and win by all legal means. That is their job. The controlling organizations set the rules all teams must follow try and get things level. They are the ones letting trans play, they are the ones responsible for this shit. I blame them more then the trans.

We rarely agree, but this is one of those times. This is something you definitely need a top down rule for.

Modern Football as we know it was pretty much formed by coach Pop Warner finding ways around existing rules and the institution coming up with new rules to stop him from continuing his latest shenanigan. That's the boat we are in.

 

[Rod1]

What "anti-trans sentiment" are you talking about? I'm being honest. What specifically was said due to this issue that had to do with negative attitude towards trans people themselves and not the issue of fair competition? I'm curious as to what you believe you witnessed.

eh? not accusing anyone in this thread particularly, im just saying in general its used by people who just hate trans people.

 

[Rod1]

Why do you think it took them so long to change the rules?

IOC washing their hands and saying "Well, we will leave it up to national bodies" and national bodies not wanting the flak of being seen as bigoted.

IMO they just let Lia Thomas compete so that people who would be "this is discriminating against trans women" would say "Oh, now i get it".

 

[The_Renaissance]

IOC washing their hands and saying "Well, we will leave it up to national bodies" and national bodies not wanting the flak of being seen as bigoted.

IMO they just let Lia Thomas compete so that people who would be "this is discriminating against trans women" would say "Oh, now i get it".

William Thomas, you mean? The sexual fetishist.

 

[Rod1]

What "anti-trans sentiment" are you talking about? I'm being honest. What specifically was said due to this issue that had to do with negative attitude towards trans people themselves and not the issue of fair competition? I'm curious as to what you believe you witnessed.

William Thomas, you mean? The sexual fetishist.

 

[Ichibanner]

I asked you prior to that post and would still like to know what, specifically, you were referencing. Not because I don't believe you, but because I haven't seen much "anti-trans" sentiment.

I've witnessed more of a sentiment that XY chromosomally paired individuals shouldn't get to compete with XX chromosomally paired individuals for reasons that have been stated.

Even that post seems more aimed at a specific individual to me than an overall "anti-trans" sentiment.

 

[Mr Holmes]

IOC washing their hands and saying "Well, we will leave it up to national bodies" and national bodies not wanting the flak of being seen as bigoted.

IMO they just let Lia Thomas compete so that people who would be "this is discriminating against trans women" would say "Oh, now i get it".

Well, I still think its relevant to discuss. I believe the public criticism was a catalyst for the rule changes.

 

[Rod1]

I asked you prior to that post and would still like to know what, specifically, you were referencing. Not because I don't believe you, but because I haven't seen much "anti-trans" sentiment.

As i pointed out, this thread in particular is not that bad, also Sherdog seems to be well moderated, i frequent many sites on the internet, some less moderated than others and whenever i see something about Lia Thomas its usually followed by pretty hardcore anti-trans stuff that its not related to competitive sports.

 

[Rod1]

Well, I still think its relevant to discuss. I believe the public criticism was a catalyst for the rule changes.

I think the catalyst would be that it would effectively eliminate high performance women's sports, they just needed the public to understand why it would.

 

[IamStryker]

eh? not accusing anyone in this thread particularly, im just saying in general its used by people who just hate trans people.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone who just "hates trans people". What people hate is the ideology which leads to stupid controversies like this thread.