How good is Mackenzie Dern compared to a male BJJ guy?

[BJJ_Rage]

When did I ever claim it didn't apply to Judo as well?
But yes, gi trickery and tactics can go a long way vs strength and I agree this is massively overlooked not just as regards women but smaller people in general making it work.



Don't think you can say that as a general statement.
Also you seem you seem to forget that BJJ starts standing as well in any kind of real scenario or competition format outside of pure sport BJJ.

of course I can, ...I dont forget anything, this thread is about bjj, not mma, and in bjj you can pull guard or sit on your ass...

 

[Esile]

I have watched videos of her competing in the open weight division of male tournaments and tapping bigger adult males of her same rank left and right when she was just 16 years old.

By the way those were the Elizabeth Clay matches I was talking about just in case someone may be interested, I also watched a couple more but I was not able to find them:





Also the ones she lost:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_JIv6qcjbI

 

[kpoz12]

How Can I Defeat a Girl If I Cannot Even Defeat MYSELF?

 

[Sweeptheleg7]

Things I'd like to add after reading 4 pages of this:

1. Gabi Garcia is massive and loaded with HGH/Steroids so she hardly counts as a "woman" imo on multiple levels. She's an anomaly for women, much like say a Brock Lesnar/Shaq is for men, and she uses androgenic hormones to obvious levels therefore invalidating her as an example in my opinion.

2. I think Gi vs No-Gi matters a fuck ton and that's something that has been tossed in at the end and glossed over here. I think it's massive. I think a woman stands much more of a chance in the gi, it's more technical and definitely lowers the bar for strength/athleticism to win/compete.

3. The Master guy here, I agreed with some of your earlier points. But it's also obvious you have some weird vendetta against BJJ and are some Judo lord.

If you like Judo, cool. And I think you have some valid points with that first video too. But you're absolute lost and delusional if you think this doesn't apply to the sport of Judo as well. A 230 lb man is going to fucking sky or man handle a 120-140lb woman in Judo too and that's only Gi. If we were talking no-gi Judo (Mousasi legit massacring Rousey video for example) it would be even worse.

Women are worse than men at sports, athletically, strength. This is obvious and biological fact. But at the same time, BJJ works and a blue belt or purple women who's possibly smaller, but somewhere in the ballpark of an untrained or white belt or inferior BJJ skilled Man...in a gi specifically, can win and will win most of the time on average.

I think you make some very good points. Go vs nogi matters a lot for a lot of people. I think it really depends on how good a person is at adapting and improvising. That is a skill in itself. There are some people who have never done mma but would do really well with just bjj because they’re good at adapting to the situation amd improvising on the spot. Where as guys like me really need to drill it before I can do it.

Im sure if the bjj female trained specifically for the guy and all that guy does is improve his bjj cardio by doing lots of bjj solo drills in a hitt cardio manner, the bjj female would be able to tap him way faster. It really seems like she wasn’t trying to smash him but just waiting for him to mess up.

It does make me wonder how a guy like Marcelo Garcia did so well in the absolute division when he was competing back in the day. They guy doesn’t lift or so any strength or conditioning but is a beast. Maybe he’s just naturally strong. I can feel my strength fading away with age and injuries amd if I was still training I can see myself adapting an old mans game and leg locks.

 

[kenetics]

So apparently Dern's BJJ is as good as we saw in WMMA so far.

I'm just curious how good her BJJ is relative to guys. Now in wrestling, if someone's wrestling is as good as some people are saying her BJJ is, she's not going to beat someone in her own weight class someone ranked nationally, let alone internationally. I'm not sure if she would beat someone who wrestled in college in her same weight class either. Because at the end of the day, I just don't see her fairing well, as in someone with wrestling hypothetically as good as Dern's BJJ is supposed to be.

So, the question is, at which level do you think Dern would be competitive with guys in BJJ competition?

I can easily answer this question because I've known here since she was 7yrs old and have been her training partner through all her belts.

No she would not stand no chance at black belt against a competent black belt competitor. She would obviously beat black belts who only got their belt due to time on the mats. We all know those black belts who should never have gotten a black belt to begin with lol.

 

[JustOnce]

I can easily answer this question because I've known here since she was 7yrs old and have been her training partner through all her belts.

No she would not stand no chance at black belt against a competent black belt competitor. She would obviously beat black belts who only got their belt due to time on the mats. We all know those black belts who should never have gotten a black belt to begin with lol.

What about Rogan vs Dern

 

[kenetics]

What about Rogan vs Dern

Rogan.

 

[JustOnce]

Rogan.

But Rogan is exactly the guy u mentioned. Got his bb due to time on the mat.

 

[kenetics]

But Rogan is exactly the guy u mentioned. Got his bb due to time on the mat.

Joe rogan is nowhere the guy I mentioned. Joe rogan is an athlete who's won tournaments in taekwondo.

Joe rogan is also very strong as well. He is around 200lb and not your average fat slob black belt.

I'm a black belt under her father. I got all my ranks from him from white to blackbelt. I've competed in many tournaments from white belt to blackbelt. I have won multiple state titles at all levels and have won multiple black belt matches.


I have seen kenzie roll in the academy for most of her bjj journey. I have rolled with her countless times . I know all her weaknesses and strengths .

So ya, trust me.

 

[yetanother]

Joe rogan is nowhere the guy I mentioned. Joe rogan is an athlete who's won tournaments in taekwondo.

Joe rogan is also very strong as well. He is around 200lb and not your average fat slob black belt.

I'm a black belt under her father. I got all my ranks from him from white to blackbelt. I've competed in many tournaments from white belt to blackbelt. I have won multiple state titles at all levels and have won multiple black belt matches.


I have seen kenzie roll in the academy for most of her bjj journey. I have rolled with her countless times . I know all her weaknesses and strengths .

So ya, trust me.

Have you trained with Rogan? Is he even healthy enough to roll nowadays.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Have you trained with Rogan? Is he even healthy enough to roll nowadays.

His in his 50s, si who cares

 

[TheMaster]

His in his 50s, si who cares

You're statistically more likely to be attacked when you're older. It matters then,not when your in your 20's and can fight with athletecism anyway.

 

[TheMaster]

By the way those were the Elizabeth Clay matches I was talking about just in case someone may be interested, I also watched a couple more but I was not able to find them:





Also the ones she lost:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_JIv6qcjbI

I think part of this is the way sport BJJ has evolved. Fair play to her she got the tap but it just shows me how far sport BJJ has deviated from reality and other grappling styles. Even catch was always pin or submission which was to maintain the importance of top position for bridging to fighting.

I do observe that
- leg locks make a big difference. They seem to be a big equalizer which someone pointed out.
- she usually gets taken down and outpositioned and out muscled without much difficulty. Again if strikes are involved shes in awful positions most of the time. If they were she may take better position? Yes, but that requires much more wrestling control which is much harder not wriggling for submissions underneath and she would lose that most of time against a strong guy with a bit of training.

-Same for takedown and slams normally she is taken down or goes straight to her back.

So it is good to see the flexibility and technique she does allows her to win sometimes and get a tap in these rules.
I think pure sport BJJ is the only place we will see this with any frequency though.

Self defence BJJ or slapjitsu (combat jiujitsu) she is not beating any of those guys.

And any other format of fighting/MMA/Judo/Wrestling it's not like that either and I still see a strong guy with minimal training as giving any elite female grappler a very hard time.

This is what I believe Rorion Gracie was aluding to with the statement that a female of any level will struggle against a man, but in pure sport BJJ so many advantageous of strength are disallowed or not counted that it allows much more equality to develop.

 

[Esile]

- leg locks make a big difference. They seem to be a big equalizer which someone pointed out.

I did actually.

For the rest I posted these videos because someone mentioned specifically Elizabeth Clay in a pure BJJ setting, and the thread is about pure BJJ.

In MMA/self defense you obviously need to behave differently, and like said i think that in MMA/real fight for a woman winning is much harder than in pure BJJ, but still easier than in Judo or Wrestling.

I think part of this is the way sport BJJ has evolved. Fair play to her she got the tap but it just shows me how far sport BJJ has deviated from reality and other grappling styles. Even catch was always pin or submission which was to maintain the importance of top position for bridging to fighting.

I think pin rules are by far the most unrealistic ruleset while at the same time being the one where strenght and athleticism matter most.
Back in the old days the Gracie's (and many other BJJ fighters too) showed that you can be forced on the bottom against a much stronger but much less skilled and experienced opponent and still be the one in control of the fight, neutralize strikes and fuck them up.

I agree with you that training only sport BJJ doesn't traslate well to that however, you need to train also self defense BJJ or MMA to be able to pull it off reliably.
It's true that pure sport BJJ today has deviated a lot from real fighting, altough I don't find other grappling sports much more more realistic, pin rules are unrealistic as it gets in my opinion and Judo leg takedowns ban is massively unrealistic too.
Sports where you willingly go to your belly and give your back and where you lose if your are pinned in ways that doesn't allow the opponent to strike you without letting you escape are also far from real combat.

And any other format of fighting/MMA/Judo/Wrestling it's not like that either and I still see a strong guy with minimal training as giving any elite female grappler a very hard time.

My opinion is that in MMA/real fights an high level female grappler who is very well rounded (so she is good at takedowns, at ground fighting and knows leg locks) and who has trained dealing with strikes is going to reliably beat even much bigger and stronger guys who have minimal training, unless the size difference is truly gigantic.
It would not be a walk in the park nor an easy and guaranteed victory (so yeah, she still would have trouble, like Rorion said), but she should still win most of the time.

If she is a guard puller/butt scooter with little takedown skills and who has never even tought about strikes management then yeah, she is very likely going to lose badly.

If however the much bigger and stronger guy is completely untrained and clueless, instead of having some training, she is probably going to still pull it off even if she has holes in her game.

If the much bigger and stronger guy is also a competent grappler (eg. solid blue belt level) then he is very likely going to destroy her.

Also we should keep in mind that, like men, not all high level female grapplers are the same strenght and athleticism wise, there are huge individual differences between them too.
Letting aside genetic anomaly such as Gabi Garcia, there is a shiton of difference between a 150-160 lbs elite female grappler and a 100-110 lbs one.

An athletic 160 lbs one may be able to easily beat a very big and strong guy who is too much for a 110 lbs one, despite not being more skilled than the other girl.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You're statistically more likely to be attacked when you're older. It matters then,not when your in your 20's and can fight with athletecism anyway.

this is the most ridiculous shit you’ve said... you can fight with athletism? How about your not an athlete? How about your 125 pounds? How about when you are in your 20s your normally much more exposed to fights since well you are you. And going out it’s part of your life. There’s not many 50 years old guys going to clubs picking up fights. Like most things you say your pulling those stats out of your ass

 

[TheMaster]

this is the most ridiculous shit you’ve said... you can fight with athletism? How about your not an athlete? How about your 125 pounds? How about when you are in your 20s your normally much more exposed to fights since well you are you. And going out it’s part of your life. There’s not many 50 years old guys going to clubs picking up fights.

Of course you can fight with greater athleticism in your 20's compared to when your in your 50's and 60's and beyond. I have to find the stats on muggings or assualts by age but you're obviously way more vulnerable as you get old regardless.
Your the one who made the stupidass statement that "it doesn't matter he's in his 50's."

That's when it starts mattering even more!
You can't rely on strength so much or speed to escape or whatever.
Martial arts was designed for self defence. The sport is just a side piece to develop this or should be.

My opinion is that in MMA/real fights an high level female grappler who is very well rounded (so she is good at takedowns, at ground fighting and knows leg locks) and who has trained dealing with strikes is going to reliably beat even much bigger and stronger guys who have minimal training, unless the size difference is truly gigantic.
It would not be a walk in the park nor an easy and guaranteed victory (so yeah, she still would have trouble, like Rorion said), but she should still win most of the time.

If she is a guard puller/butt scooter with little takedown skills and who has never even tought about strikes management then yeah, she is very likely going to lose badly.

If however the much bigger and stronger guy is completely untrained and clueless, instead of having some training, she is probably going to still pull it off even if she has holes in her game.

If the much bigger and stronger guy is also a competent grappler (eg. solid blue belt level) then he is very likely going to destroy her.

Also we should keep in mind that, like men, not all high level female grapplers are the same strenght and athleticism wise, there are huge individual differences between them too.
Letting aside genetic anomaly such as Gabi Garcia, there is a shiton of difference between a 150-160 lbs elite female grappler and a 100-110 lbs one.

An athletic 160 lbs one may be able to easily beat a very big and strong guy who is too much for a 110 lbs one, despite not being more skilled than the other girl.

I think it's a big stretch to think that...they would have a chance yes, maybe even a decent chance but to say they would reliably beat a strong untrained man is I think too far.
A solid strike can de-skill you from black to white as the saying goes.
Then there is the fact of surviving the blitz and maybe being clavicle choked or just beat up and hurt within the first minute.

This was the point of the first vid posted of Tala. The YouTuber felt rightly if it was a 'fight' he would have beaten her by blitzing her in the first 2 minutes when he had overwhelming control. And I think if you ran that back as a fight 10 times he wins probably 8 times due to this unless she gets good position straight away.
As mentioned he was not totally ignorant either. But I think it would play out like this against most elite women grapplers unless they were abnormally large and strong.
The key for women would be to survive the onslaught for the first minutes.

The real world examples are good because if women face this is it often in a rape attempt so the guy is distracted and unexpecting a triangle. But a fight where the man just wants to beat her or subdue her is again different. I do think all women should learn a triangle choke though for self protection.

For leg locks yes another potentially great equalizer. The problem is your in a horrible position if they get out which you don't worry about in pure grappling obviously. So it is high risk/reward in that situation especially for a female. Going for a strangle hold or guillotine should still be her go to grappling wise in my view.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Of course you can fight with greater athleticism in your 20's compared to when your in your 50's and 60's and beyond. I have to find the stats on muggings or assualts by age but you're obviously way more vulnerable as you get old regardless.
Your the one who made the stupidass statement that "it doesn't matter he's in his 50's."

That's when it starts mattering even more!
You can't rely on strength so much or speed to escape or whatever.
Martial arts was designed for self defence. The sport is just a side piece to develop this or should be.



I think it's a big stretch to think that...they would have a chance yes, maybe even a decent chance but to say they would reliably beat a strong untrained man is I think too far.
A solid strike can de-skill you from black to white as the saying goes.
Then there is the fact of surviving the blitz and maybe being clavicle choked or just beat up and hurt within the first minute.

This was the point of the first vid posted of Tala. The YouTuber felt rightly if it was a 'fight' he would have beaten her by blitzing her in the first 2 minutes when he had overwhelming control. And I think if you ran that back as a fight 10 times he wins probably 8 times due to this unless she gets good position straight away.
As mentioned he was not totally ignorant either. But I think it would play out like this against most elite women grapplers unless they were abnormally large and strong.
The key for women would be to survive the onslaught for the first minutes.

The real world examples are good because if women face this is it often in a rape attempt so the guy is distracted and unexpecting a triangle. But a fight where the man just wants to beat her or subdue her is again different. I do think all women should learn a triangle choke though for self protection.

For leg locks yes another potentially great equalizer. The problem is your in a horrible position if they get out which you don't worry about in pure grappling obviously. So it is high risk/reward in that situation especially for a female. Going for a strangle hold or guillotine should still be her go to grappling wise in my view.

if you are getting mugged Guns are designed for that, what do you expect? Your going to double leg someone with a. Gun pointing to your face? Cause if your logic is... “he’s older is an easy pray” your thinkinng in being robed. Martial arts are designed for a lot of stuff, it doesn’t mean it works moron. Try to apply a knife disarm using yo ur mighty 2982838 years old aikido technique, or “martial art” technique, Chances are you are getting killed.

you do live in a fantasy world, what’s worst is that you spit moronic shit all the time, in a grappling forum where most people train, well except you.

Do you think rogan is training for sd? Or like 90% of people just for fun? Most people in here are far beyond the SD training, why? Cause we have been training for quite long enough to be over that. If mma and sd is what your worry about, fine, but rogan isn’t the type of guy who’s worry about getting mugged. May be ashida Kim type of training is for your, that ninja shit training, Case after 40 years of training you may have to use some of the deadly shit you’ve been training for your whole life...

This thread has always being about Bjj not sd, not mma and you keep taking the topics towards something no one is talking about...

 

[JustOnce]

Joe rogan is nowhere the guy I mentioned. Joe rogan is an athlete who's won tournaments in taekwondo.

Joe rogan is also very strong as well. He is around 200lb and not your average fat slob black belt.

I'm a black belt under her father. I got all my ranks from him from white to blackbelt. I've competed in many tournaments from white belt to blackbelt. I have won multiple state titles at all levels and have won multiple black belt matches.


I have seen kenzie roll in the academy for most of her bjj journey. I have rolled with her countless times . I know all her weaknesses and strengths .

So ya, trust me.

Who wins Rogan vs Mark Coleman in BJJ? If Rogan is as good as you say he is, can Rogan sub Coleman with no BJJ belt?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Who wins Rogan vs Mark Coleman in BJJ? If Rogan is as good as you say he is, can Rogan sub Coleman with no BJJ belt?

Is that even a real question? Jesus Fucking Christ this forum...

 

[JustOnce]

Is the even a real question? Jesus Fucking Christ this forum...

Dude according to him Rogan is a legit Black belt, you dork.