Could izzy beat prime Manheof?

[GOATweight]

I used to believe that K1 was so elite. but time going on has proved that K1's prestige was mostly an illusion. lots of mma guys went in there and destroyed k1 fighters in striking. lots of k1 guys left k1 and sucked. it was just marketing. izzy as we see him today could have crushed it in k1.

MMA striking is really a lot different than kickboxing. If you watch kickboxing matches, people have high guards, stand fairly upright and throw full power KO shots all the time (because 3x3 minute rounds, means more action). If you do that in MMA, you will get taken down in the first 30 seconds. Also, the clinching makes it more difficult to throw combinations because people just grab you. And the smaller gloves change the defense a lot. Kickboxers also don't move as much as you do in MMA (because you want to be ready to throw and defend low kicks). That's why the most successful kickboxers in MMA are either the very mobile ones like Adesanya or the ones that are naturally good at stopping takedowns and have heavy hands like Mark Hunt or CroCop.

 

[kflo]

This comment shows you don't really watch kickboxing and didn't really read what I wrote. I said those 3 guys are considered kickboxing greats and also have gotten KO'd in kickboxing. Manhoef never fought those 3 guys and Hari is his longtime teammate.

Melvin beat good HW guys like Stefan Leko, Paul Slowinski, Ruslan Karaev in kickboxing. His KO win over Karaev is a thing of beauty.

my point is that manhoef didn't just get knocked out by the greats of the sport. he got knocked out by the mediocre as well.

and yes, he can end fights with beautiful violence. against anyone. noone disputes that.

 

[campbecc]

Did he have a chin? It's been a while since I have watched him fight but wasn't he basically a glass canon?

 

[GOATweight]

my point is that manhoef didn't just get knocked out by the greats of the sport. he got knocked out by the mediocre as well.

and yes, he can end fights with beautiful violence. against anyone. noone disputes that.

True, but my point is if Izzy fought the same caliber of fighters in kickboxing, he would have gotten slept (and definitely lost) more. Kickboxing, especially until 2010 due to the K1 tournament setup, would always put the best of the best in the world against each other. It was pretty much impossible to be an undefeated guy. Everyone, the best of the best, would get viciously KO'd from time to time.

Izzy has a nice kickboxing record, because the vast majority of his opponents are bad to mediocre compared to the guys Manhoef fought.

 

[kflo]

True, but my point is if Izzy fought the same caliber of fighters in kickboxing, he would have gotten slept (and definitely lost) more. Kickboxing, especially until 2010 due to the K1 tournament setup, would always put the best of the best in the world against each other. It was pretty much impossible to be an undefeated guy. Everyone, the best of the best, would get viciously KO'd from time to time.

Izzy has a nice kickboxing record, because the vast majority of his opponents are bad to mediocre compared to the guys Manhoef fought.

i didn't suggest izzy wouldn't get knocked out in k1. just that manhoef's record in k1 and mma suggests he's beatable in the standup by strikers who don't necessarily have the same caliber wins in KB that he has.

 

[GOATweight]

i didn't suggest izzy wouldn't get knocked out in k1. just that manhoef's record in k1 and mma suggests he's beatable in the standup by strikers who don't necessarily have the same caliber wins in KB that he has.

Oh yeah, sure. To your point, I think Carvalho's set up to KO him was a nice one, good example.

 

[pankrat]

Bonjasky at 40+ beats any version of Izzy in a kickboxing match. Kickboxing is my first combat sport and I've watched pretty much every major kickboxing fight since 90's, Adesanya cannot compete in kickboxing with the guys Manhoef competed with during the K1 days.

The times Bonjasky beat Manhoef, Melvin gave him a good fight each time. Manhoef was the smallest guy - both weight and height - consistently fighting at HW against top guys.

Not sure about a retired Bonjasky beating Adesanya at the top of his game but anyways I agree he could never give a prime Bonjasky the fights Manhoef did.

 

[Kal-El]

Has to be one of my favorite kickboxers of all time. God damn he would look like he was working the pads when he was beating the shit out of someone, flawless offense.

 

[tehMoose]

Manhoef by KO definitely

Israel is very hittable

 

[GOATweight]

Not sure about a retired Bonjasky beating Adesanya at the top of his game but anyways I agree he could never give a prime Bonjasky the fights Manhoef did.

Bonjasky is same height as Adesanya, weighs 238 pounds and is known for having one of the tightest guards and toughest chins in kickboxing. He generally keeps guys on the outside, kicks the shit out of them, explodes every now and then with flying knees or straight punches. Bonjasky is retired, but he is one of those guys that constantly trains and keeps a healthy diet. He's in shape and trains daily at his gym Bonjasky Academy in the Netherlands.

To say Adesanya beats Remy, that means Adesanya is going to put on a kickboxing clinic outpointing the 3x K1 champ Bonjasky (because he sure as hell won't be able to KO him). I'm sorry, that's just not going to happen.

EDIT: a little reminder

 

[pankrat]

Bonjasky is same height as Adesanya, weighs 238 pounds and is known for having one of the tightest guards and toughest chins in kickboxing. He generally keeps guys on the outside, kicks the shit out of them, explodes every now and then with flying knees or straight punches. Bonjasky is retired, but he is one of those guys that constantly trains and keeps a healthy diet. He's in shape and trains daily at his gym Bonjasky Academy in the Netherlands.

To say Adesanya beats Remy, that means Adesanya is going to put on a kickboxing clinic outpointing the 3x K1 champ Bonjasky (because he sure as hell won't be able to KO him). I'm sorry, that's just not going to happen.

EDIT: a little reminder

Yeah I used to be a fan of Bonjasky. Cool fighter although could be rather boring, pretty deffensive minded. He is also a very likeable character.

I have barely watched Adesanya in KB to be fair and yeah, Remy could beat him there even retired. I do think in a standup fight with MMA gloves, even solely contested in the feet, Israel could be able to exploit Remy's flaws in his boxing and his notable tight guard would not be as tight without big gloves.

 

[GOATweight]

Yeah I used to be a fan of Bonjasky. Cool fighter although could be rather boring, pretty deffensive minded. He is also a very likeable character.

I have barely watched Adesanya in KB to be fair and yeah, Remy could beat him there even retired. I do think in a standup fight with MMA gloves, even solely contested in the feet, Israel could be able to exploit Remy's flaws in his boxing and his notable tight guard would not be as tight without big gloves.

I think it won't be that much different, because against Adesanya, Remy would not have to worry about takedowns. He can just go full kickboxing mode. It's basically going to be a kickboxing match with smaller gloves in a cage. There might be some more clinching that can make a difference (but Remy has done Muay Thai fights too obviously). It would be somewhat more favorable for Adesanya compared to a kickboxing match, but I don't see a huge difference.

Remy would get wrecked by other MMA fighters that would take him down. He's never done a MMA fight, no chance he's going to become good at it at this point. So, Adesanya will do better in MMA.

 

[pankrat]

I think it won't be that much different, because against Adesanya, Remy would not have to worry about takedowns. He can just go full kickboxing mode. It's basically going to be a kickboxing match with smaller gloves in a cage. There might be some more clinching that can make a difference (but Remy has done Muay Thai fights too obviously). It would be somewhat more favorable for Adesanya compared to a kickboxing match, but I don't see a huge difference.

Remy would get wrecked by other MMA fighters that would take him down. He's never done a MMA fight, no chance he's going to become good at it at this point. So, Adesanya will do better in MMA.

I didnt mean in a MMA fight. I meant in a kickboxing match but with small gloves. And not because of clinching, I don't think clinching would favour Adesanya against a bigger man with Muay Thai experience who also excells at knees as Bonjasky.

Remy's defense to punches with his tight guard depended a lot on the big gloves. With small gloves you can't just cover yourself the way Remy used to do to block punches. You can, but it also let you much more exposed to punches as the ones Adesanya likes to throw, don't you agree?

I think Remy's boxing was pretty rudimentary and if Israel was able to force him to exchange punches he could get the better of him. Easier said than done of course, as Remy was a master at his own craft, he was often able to neutralize opponent's offense but as I said the big gloves played an important role in that in my opinion

 

[GOATweight]

I didnt mean in a MMA fight. I meant in a kickboxing match but with small gloves. And not because of clinching, I don't think clinching would favour Adesanya against a bigger man with Muay Thai experience who also excells at knees as Bonjasky.

Remy's defense to punches with his tight guard depended a lot on the big gloves. With small gloves you can't just cover yourself the way Remy used to do to block punches. You can, but it also let you much more exposed to punches as the ones Adesanya likes to throw, don't you agree?

I think Remy's boxing was pretty rudimentary and if Israel was able to force him to exchange punches he could get the better of him. Easier said than done of course, as Remy was a master at his own craft, he was often able to neutralize opponent's offense but as I said the big gloves played an important role in that in my opinion

Yeah, you are more exposed to punches. But Adesanya, for a big guy like Remy, is not a heavier hitter. Remy keeps you always at the end of his kicks and punches. Adesanya likes to fight from the outside. He would need to go inside to beat Remy. And I don't he will be able to. Smaller gloves, big gloves, no gloves.