I got my vaccine passport today! I'm a free man.

Will you get a vaccine passport?

  • Yes

    Votes: 52 30.1%
  • No

    Votes: 121 69.9%

  • Total voters
    173
@Toothy , What's your Ph.D in?

I ask because as an academic, you should be able to find peer reviewed studies from impact factor journals that support your position....unless you think that the academic community is also on the take.

I did a quick search of sciencedirect and couldn't find anything that specifically questioned the efficacy of vaccination. To the contrary, there are a dozen or so papers that speak to the effectiveness of various covid vaccinations.

One point I will concede is that there is a timelag between studies being published and what is happening in real time. The situation is very fluid and delta has thrown a spanner into our understanding of how vaccines are working.
 
The thread title is so lame and self defeatist. I hope it was tongue-in-cheek.

We need to stop playing the games of the faux elite.. They underestimate our intelligence, overestimate their own, and we have idiots going along with it ruining it for everybody.
Well if you are in Israel you have to get a booster shot every six months now. That's what the health officials are saying now its only matter of time before most health officials spin it around in other countries...

In Canada one said that more than two doses is not recommended i really want to know what science Israel is following..
 
What you describe is true, but you seem to ignore that BOTH sides struggle with confirmation bias. Further, individuals indoctrinated into certain systems/thinking tend to be MORE prone to biased thinking (eg medical professionals who only think within a narrow scope).

I don't disagree with your observation.

Personally, as a layperson (I have a PhD, but not in anything related to the medical field), I can only look at what information is available, and to the best of my abilities, make an informed choice about getting the vaccine.

I personally would choose to trust the medical/scientific community, rather that these random websites like the other guy posted.

If the scientific community was split, with no clear consensus on whether the vaccines were effective, then I would be reluctant to get it. So far though, most of the information coming from antivaxxers is from non scientists.
 
I don't disagree with your observation.

Personally, as a layperson (I have a PhD, but not in anything related to the medical field), I can only look at what information is available, and to the best of my abilities, make an informed choice about getting the vaccine.

I personally would choose to trust the medical/scientific community, rather that these random websites like the other guy posted.

If the scientific community was split, with no clear consensus on whether the vaccines were effective, then I would be reluctant to get it. So far though, most of the information coming from antivaxxers is from non scientists.
So far though, most of the information coming from antivaxxers is from non scientists.
To you an anti vax is some who are even questioning the drug marker history or its effectiveness. Nevermind that fact i am sure you would be cheering for getting the vax every six months.. Or five months.

I personally would choose to trust the medical/scientific community
Its not like most of them have a conflict of interest with Big Pharma right?
 
I don't disagree with your observation.

Personally, as a layperson (I have a PhD, but not in anything related to the medical field), I can only look at what information is available, and to the best of my abilities, make an informed choice about getting the vaccine.

I personally would choose to trust the medical/scientific community, rather that these random websites like the other guy posted.

If the scientific community was split, with no clear consensus on whether the vaccines were effective, then I would be reluctant to get it. So far though, most of the information coming from antivaxxers is from non scientists.

This is my take on it. Anti-vaxxers seem very alarmist. I do listen to what they have to say with an open mind but when I start reading what they claim on scientific studies it just never seems to line up.
 
You ever had to wear a mask?

I wore a mask to make food deliveries and to do grocery shopping, but I didn't bother to put a filter in it so it wasn't effective whatsoever, and I knew that but I wore anyway.

No big deal, just bought a cheap-o-mask off Amazon.
 
To you an anti vax is some who are even questioning the drug marker history or its effectiveness. Nevermind that fact i am sure you would be cheering for getting the vax every six months.. Or five months.


Its not like most of them have a conflict of interest with Big Pharma right?

Not at all - I have always had a neutral stance on vaccinations on the whole. A person can (and should) be skeptical of getting a new vaccine, and not be an anti-vaxxer. To me, an anti-vaxxer is someone who claims to evidence or science that repudiates the efficacy of vaccines, or make claims that it is part of a larger coordinated conspiracy.

My point, which alot of people seem to be missing, is that the vast majority of people do not understand where to seek out credible information, how to interpret numbers, the difference between evidence and anecdotes, how studies are designed etc. (I sound like a broken record). This includes both proponents of the vaccine and those that oppose it. With that being said, there are people far smarter than you or I who have dedicated their lives to researching this topic, and for the most part, they are saying vaccines help prevent the spread or severity of COVID. I think it would be more prudent to trust their opinions, that that of people peddling conspiracies on facebook, or anyone who says that they know the "real truth". The points raised in the previous article that attempts to debunk the safety of the vaccine by pointing to historical examples of malfeasance by pharmaceutical companies is an ad-hominem attack - if we show how evil pharma companies are, then why should we trust them with respect to the vaccine? Unfortunately, this isn't a valid argument - it's a distraction from the fact that there is a paucity of data showing vaccines are harmful or ineffectual.

Unless there is a conspiracy being perpetrated at a global level involving all levels of government, academia, the medical community etc., scientists are doing the best they can to develop a vaccine, develop safety protocols etc. to address a very fluid situation. People will often claim that Dr. Faucci changed his opinion on masks and social distancing, therefore he is not credible. What they are missing is that this is something that we haven't dealt with in our lifetime - we are learning as we go, what works and what doesn't. It is inevitable that guidance will change in response to the more we know about the situation.

While I am no medical expert, I am a trained statistician. The numbers are very black and white - while yes vaccinated people can still contract COVID, the severity of the illness is greatly reduced. Areas with stronger enforcement surrounding social distancing and mask mandates have lower reported incidences of COVID. Based on all available data to date, it would appear that vaccines and social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID. That isn't to say that it is perfect, nor is it to say that future circumstances won't change, but ceterus paribus, getting vaccinated is safer than not being vaccinated (once again, this is based on the data that we have).

I would be willing to bet that the same people who are claiming that vaccines are changing our DNA and implanting microchips could not understand an academic, peer reviewed paper. The fact that people think they can read some articles on the internet/watch youtube and think that they have an informed opinion on the subject is both laughable and insulting to actual experts.
 
Not at all - I have always had a neutral stance on vaccinations on the whole. A person can (and should) be skeptical of getting a new vaccine, and not be an anti-vaxxer. To me, an anti-vaxxer is someone who claims to evidence or science that repudiates the efficacy of vaccines, or make claims that it is part of a larger coordinated conspiracy.

My point, which alot of people seem to be missing, is that the vast majority of people do not understand where to seek out credible information, how to interpret numbers, the difference between evidence and anecdotes, how studies are designed etc. (I sound like a broken record). This includes both proponents of the vaccine and those that oppose it. With that being said, there are people far smarter than you or I who have dedicated their lives to researching this topic, and for the most part, they are saying vaccines help prevent the spread or severity of COVID. I think it would be more prudent to trust their opinions, that that of people peddling conspiracies on facebook, or anyone who says that they know the "real truth". The points raised in the previous article that attempts to debunk the safety of the vaccine by pointing to historical examples of malfeasance by pharmaceutical companies is an ad-hominem attack - if we show how evil pharma companies are, then why should we trust them with respect to the vaccine? Unfortunately, this isn't a valid argument - it's a distraction from the fact that there is a paucity of data showing vaccines are harmful or ineffectual.

Unless there is a conspiracy being perpetrated at a global level involving all levels of government, academia, the medical community etc., scientists are doing the best they can to develop a vaccine, develop safety protocols etc. to address a very fluid situation. People will often claim that Dr. Faucci changed his opinion on masks and social distancing, therefore he is not credible. What they are missing is that this is something that we haven't dealt with in our lifetime - we are learning as we go, what works and what doesn't. It is inevitable that guidance will change in response to the more we know about the situation.

While I am no medical expert, I am a trained statistician. The numbers are very black and white - while yes vaccinated people can still contract COVID, the severity of the illness is greatly reduced. Areas with stronger enforcement surrounding social distancing and mask mandates have lower reported incidences of COVID. Based on all available data to date, it would appear that vaccines and social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID. That isn't to say that it is perfect, nor is it to say that future circumstances won't change, but ceterus paribus, getting vaccinated is safer than not being vaccinated (once again, this is based on the data that we have).

I would be willing to bet that the same people who are claiming that vaccines are changing our DNA and implanting microchips could not understand an academic, peer reviewed paper. The fact that people think they can read some articles on the internet/watch youtube and think that they have an informed opinion on the subject is both laughable and insulting to actual experts.
I am sure you have no issues with the vax passports and no issues getting the booster shots for every six/five months and that is what is happening in Israel.

What is happening in Israel will happen elsewhere.

develop safety protocols etc. to address a very fluid situation
You are trusting two mRNA vaxs drug markers with a shady track history.

Based on all available data to date, it would appear that vaccines and social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID
The data from Israel disagree with you.

Israel is planning to administer FOURTH Covid shot which could be adjusted to fight new variants as country battles wave of infections despite hugely successful vaccine roll-out
The country's national coronavirus czar says people should expect to receive a new vaccination against the virus more frequently - 'every five to six months'


Social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID
If what you claim is to be true than time after time again our polticans had caught in large groups with no masks and in large groups breaking the social distancing rules?
US: Nancy Pelosi criticised for Democrats’ ‘no-mask, no social distancing’ fundraiser event at Napa

We are learning as we go, what works and what doesn't. It is inevitable that guidance will change in response to the more we know about the situation.

I am not surprised you are defending fauci.
 
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Not at all - I have always had a neutral stance on vaccinations on the whole. A person can (and should) be skeptical of getting a new vaccine, and not be an anti-vaxxer. To me, an anti-vaxxer is someone who claims to evidence or science that repudiates the efficacy of vaccines, or make claims that it is part of a larger coordinated conspiracy.

My point, which alot of people seem to be missing, is that the vast majority of people do not understand where to seek out credible information, how to interpret numbers, the difference between evidence and anecdotes, how studies are designed etc. (I sound like a broken record). This includes both proponents of the vaccine and those that oppose it. With that being said, there are people far smarter than you or I who have dedicated their lives to researching this topic, and for the most part, they are saying vaccines help prevent the spread or severity of COVID. I think it would be more prudent to trust their opinions, that that of people peddling conspiracies on facebook, or anyone who says that they know the "real truth". The points raised in the previous article that attempts to debunk the safety of the vaccine by pointing to historical examples of malfeasance by pharmaceutical companies is an ad-hominem attack - if we show how evil pharma companies are, then why should we trust them with respect to the vaccine? Unfortunately, this isn't a valid argument - it's a distraction from the fact that there is a paucity of data showing vaccines are harmful or ineffectual.

Unless there is a conspiracy being perpetrated at a global level involving all levels of government, academia, the medical community etc., scientists are doing the best they can to develop a vaccine, develop safety protocols etc. to address a very fluid situation. People will often claim that Dr. Faucci changed his opinion on masks and social distancing, therefore he is not credible. What they are missing is that this is something that we haven't dealt with in our lifetime - we are learning as we go, what works and what doesn't. It is inevitable that guidance will change in response to the more we know about the situation.

While I am no medical expert, I am a trained statistician. The numbers are very black and white - while yes vaccinated people can still contract COVID, the severity of the illness is greatly reduced. Areas with stronger enforcement surrounding social distancing and mask mandates have lower reported incidences of COVID. Based on all available data to date, it would appear that vaccines and social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID. That isn't to say that it is perfect, nor is it to say that future circumstances won't change, but ceterus paribus, getting vaccinated is safer than not being vaccinated (once again, this is based on the data that we have).

I would be willing to bet that the same people who are claiming that vaccines are changing our DNA and implanting microchips could not understand an academic, peer reviewed paper. The fact that people think they can read some articles on the internet/watch youtube and think that they have an informed opinion on the subject is both laughable and insulting to actual experts.

If social distancing are the most effective measures for mitigating the spread of COVID like you claim. Maybe polticans like Obama and others shouldn't host parties up to 600+ people having no masks. While mocking everyone else that is protesting agaisnt mask measures?

Based on all available data to date, it would appear that vaccines
Let me ask you again time and time again i post official articles and data from Israel showing that these vaxs wane over time.According to data now and officials you would need now at least five/six months booster shots.

This is insane.

insulting to actual experts
You mean the same experts who are treating the heart inflammation as an rare type of thing? and same experts who kept pushing for harsher lockdowns during last year?
 
it only means you can be locked up/jailed again ts
 
Fuck the mother ducking passport. Gym owes me months of usage due to being closed during lockdown and still billing. Can’t even get in...and I have 1 jab. Fuck off.
 
I am sure you have no issues with the vax passports and no issues getting the booster shots for every six/five months and that is what is happening in Israel.

What is happening in Israel will happen elsewhere.


You are trusting two mRNA vaxs drug markers with a shady track history.


The data from Israel disagree with you.

Israel is planning to administer FOURTH Covid shot which could be adjusted to fight new variants as country battles wave of infections despite hugely successful vaccine roll-out




If what you claim is to be true than time after time again our polticans had caught in large groups with no masks and in large groups breaking the social distancing rules?
US: Nancy Pelosi criticised for Democrats’ ‘no-mask, no social distancing’ fundraiser event at Napa



I am not surprised you are defending fauci.

You are conflating a number of issues and trying to politicize the debate by referencing democrats congregating without masks (what this has to do with the efficacy of vaccines I have no idea - politicians routinely don't practice what they preach. That is a tail as old as time and not unique to any political affiliation). There are countless examples of large unmasked gatherings becoming super-spreader events. Knowing what we should do, versus actually doing it are very different things.

Once again, this is a difficult argument to have because you have dug your heels in the sand and think its appropriate to cherry pick data/info that suits your narratives. To me, the situation happening in Israel speaks to the dangers associated with virus mutation, which compromises the efficacy of existing vaccines. I was explicit in saying that treatments and protocols change in response to how the situation changes.

Virtually every major country experienced a precipitous drop in COVID infections once the original vaccines were introduced. In June, many people were prematurely celebrating an end to COVID and a resumption of everyday life. It was doctors that sounded the alarm saying that we must still be vigilant, as viruses mutate and can potentially evade existing treatments. As the Delta variant began to proliferate (at the same time as we reduced social distancing and mask mandates), covid infections exploded.... an outcome that both the CDC and WHO warned was a possibility.

Do you think that the flu shot is part of a massive conspiracy? The trajectory of how we are responding to COVID mirrors that of what occurs with the common flu. Every year, people get flu shots to help prevent contracting the flu... and every year, the flu virus mutates, which subsequently requires new vaccines. Vaccines change in response to the virus - why this comes as a surprise to people confuses me.

It is alarming that people stick their heads in the sand and are ignoring what is a very obvious situation. Jurisdictions with lower rates of vaccination are getting steamrolled by COVID. Florida, Arkansas and other states where less than 50% of eligible adults are vaccinated have higher case counts now, than they did during the height of the pandemic in January. More than 95% of the people in hospital and requiring critical care are those who are unvaccinated.

As for big pharma being evil - I agree 100%. But that doesn't stop millions of people from taking the litany of drugs we already ingest in our every day lives. The same companies you think are part of a global conspiracy, are the ones who make your tylenol, cancer drugs, anti-depressants, sleeping pills etc. How is the COVID vaccine any different that these items?

I understand the objections to the vaccine passport, but to me, that is a separate conversation from whether the vaccines are effective/safe or not.

PS: If we can't trust the medical "experts", where should people be getting their information?
 
Fuck the mother ducking passport. Gym owes me months of usage due to being closed during lockdown and still billing. Can’t even get in...and I have 1 jab. Fuck off.
Well you arent fully vaxed if you dont have the second dose.
 
You are conflating a number of issues and trying to politicize the debate by referencing democrats congregating without masks (what this has to do with the efficacy of vaccines I have no idea - politicians routinely don't practice what they preach. That is a tail as old as time and not unique to any political affiliation). There are countless examples of large unmasked gatherings becoming super-spreader events. Knowing what we should do, versus actually doing it are very different things.

Once again, this is a difficult argument to have because you have dug your heels in the sand and think its appropriate to cherry pick data/info that suits your narratives. To me, the situation happening in Israel speaks to the dangers associated with virus mutation, which compromises the efficacy of existing vaccines. I was explicit in saying that treatments and protocols change in response to how the situation changes.

Virtually every major country experienced a precipitous drop in COVID infections once the original vaccines were introduced. In June, many people were prematurely celebrating an end to COVID and a resumption of everyday life. It was doctors that sounded the alarm saying that we must still be vigilant, as viruses mutate and can potentially evade existing treatments. As the Delta variant began to proliferate (at the same time as we reduced social distancing and mask mandates), covid infections exploded.... an outcome that both the CDC and WHO warned was a possibility.

Do you think that the flu shot is part of a massive conspiracy? The trajectory of how we are responding to COVID mirrors that of what occurs with the common flu. Every year, people get flu shots to help prevent contracting the flu... and every year, the flu virus mutates, which subsequently requires new vaccines. Vaccines change in response to the virus - why this comes as a surprise to people confuses me.

It is alarming that people stick their heads in the sand and are ignoring what is a very obvious situation. Jurisdictions with lower rates of vaccination are getting steamrolled by COVID. Florida, Arkansas and other states where less than 50% of eligible adults are vaccinated have higher case counts now, than they did during the height of the pandemic in January. More than 95% of the people in hospital and requiring critical care are those who are unvaccinated.

As for big pharma being evil - I agree 100%. But that doesn't stop millions of people from taking the litany of drugs we already ingest in our every day lives. The same companies you think are part of a global conspiracy, are the ones who make your tylenol, cancer drugs, anti-depressants, sleeping pills etc. How is the COVID vaccine any different that these items?

I understand the objections to the vaccine passport, but to me, that is a separate conversation from whether the vaccines are effective/safe or not.

PS: If we can't trust the medical "experts", where should people be getting their information?


that is a separate conversation from whether the vaccines are effective/safe or not
Your trusting your health on a company like Pfizer with a shady track history like how they were forced to pay 75 Million for lawsuits agaisnt a drug trail that caused injures in Africa.. Just as a small example.

Jurisdictions with lower rates of vaccination are getting steamrolled by COVID. Florida, Arkansas and other states where less than 50% of eligible adults are vaccinated have higher case counts now, than they did during the height of the pandemic in January. More than 95% of the people in hospital and requiring critical care are those who are unvaccinated.
And once again you are ignoring the data from Israel which majority of cases are the vaxed ending up in hospital. You seem to have no issue posting things that fit your narrative.


politicians routinely don't practice what they preach
But they expect you to do it. When they arent the ones following it through.

I agree 100%. But that doesn't stop millions of people from taking the litany of drugs we already ingest in our every day lives
Companies that have a good track vs those that dont have as shady track history or have history of recalls, lawsuits...

That is a difference.
 
You are conflating a number of issues and trying to politicize the debate by referencing democrats congregating without masks (what this has to do with the efficacy of vaccines I have no idea - politicians routinely don't practice what they preach. That is a tail as old as time and not unique to any political affiliation). There are countless examples of large unmasked gatherings becoming super-spreader events. Knowing what we should do, versus actually doing it are very different things.

Once again, this is a difficult argument to have because you have dug your heels in the sand and think its appropriate to cherry pick data/info that suits your narratives. To me, the situation happening in Israel speaks to the dangers associated with virus mutation, which compromises the efficacy of existing vaccines. I was explicit in saying that treatments and protocols change in response to how the situation changes.

Virtually every major country experienced a precipitous drop in COVID infections once the original vaccines were introduced. In June, many people were prematurely celebrating an end to COVID and a resumption of everyday life. It was doctors that sounded the alarm saying that we must still be vigilant, as viruses mutate and can potentially evade existing treatments. As the Delta variant began to proliferate (at the same time as we reduced social distancing and mask mandates), covid infections exploded.... an outcome that both the CDC and WHO warned was a possibility.

Do you think that the flu shot is part of a massive conspiracy? The trajectory of how we are responding to COVID mirrors that of what occurs with the common flu. Every year, people get flu shots to help prevent contracting the flu... and every year, the flu virus mutates, which subsequently requires new vaccines. Vaccines change in response to the virus - why this comes as a surprise to people confuses me.

It is alarming that people stick their heads in the sand and are ignoring what is a very obvious situation. Jurisdictions with lower rates of vaccination are getting steamrolled by COVID. Florida, Arkansas and other states where less than 50% of eligible adults are vaccinated have higher case counts now, than they did during the height of the pandemic in January. More than 95% of the people in hospital and requiring critical care are those who are unvaccinated.

As for big pharma being evil - I agree 100%. But that doesn't stop millions of people from taking the litany of drugs we already ingest in our every day lives. The same companies you think are part of a global conspiracy, are the ones who make your tylenol, cancer drugs, anti-depressants, sleeping pills etc. How is the COVID vaccine any different that these items?

I understand the objections to the vaccine passport, but to me, that is a separate conversation from whether the vaccines are effective/safe or not.

PS: If we can't trust the medical "experts", where should people be getting their information?

Nigeria sues Pfizer for $7bn over 'illegal' tests on children
The same Pfizer had other issues in the past just before the crisis.
 
Nigeria sues Pfizer for $7bn over 'illegal' tests on children
The same Pfizer had other issues in the past just before the crisis.

This is going to be my last post, but you seem to be struggling with reading comprehension, or perhaps I'm not conveying my argument clearly.

To reiterate, you referencing Israel is exactly what scientists said would happen. Stay vigilant and continue to work on vaccine development, as there is no guarantee that existing vaccinations will be as effective against future mutations. Breakthrough infections were a possibility, and with Delta, they became a reality.

I don't think your source on Israel data explicitly communicated that the majority of hospitilizations were from those who were double vaccinated (I may have missed it, so if I'm wrong, please point to the paragraph and/or page number). This would contravene findings from Canada, United States, England, Germany, Australia etc. regarding the relationship between severity of illness and inoculation.

My final two questions/comments are:
1) If the so called experts (universities, doctors, health agencies) cannot be trusted, who should we turn to for accurate information and guidance?
2) You have a propensity to distract from the actual argument by referencing unrelated events. Does Pfizer have a history of being unethical and scrupulous? Of course. But that doesn't change the fact that they make life saving drugs like lipitor, zoloft, aromasin etc. Do you stop shopping at Walmart because they have a history of labor exploitation? Do you stop putting gas in your car because Exxon mobile has been responsible for some of the worst environmental disasters in history. Being unethical and providing a valuable service are nut mutually exclusive.

I encourage you to re-read what I wrote before responding. Your coming at this from a very emotional perspective (which is self evidence by you referencing politics and a perceived infringement of personal freedoms and liberties). I'm just looking at the data - I could care less about the broader political implications, I just want day to day life return to some semblance of normalcy, and it appears vaccines are the quickest way to get there.
 
It's a liberating feeling to have this passport. Like diplomatic immunity in Lethal weapon!

diplomatic-immunity-diplomat.gif

Its a liberating feeling to have the same freedom you had before covid? Holy shit man.
 
I wasnt real keen but im 51 and could get real sick to i got my two shots. Now im ready for it. In fact wish i could get it right now and be done with it. Then no more vac boosters. As it stands until i get the covid i'll prob need a booster sometime next year. I aint real keen for my kids to get the vac but my wife will be of course.

Jokes on you, at this rate itll be a booster shot once a month.
 
Obv it doesn't, ask Israel
Israel is the absolute worst case, yet last time I checked they are close to 80% vaxed and 60% of hospital cases were vaxed.

In other words, the 20% of unvaxed population are 40% (overrepresented 200%) in the hospital, despite them skewing younger over all. And that's the worst country as far as vax efficacy goes.
 
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