A catch wrestlers thoughts

[Normot]

I'm going to need a catch wrestler to tap me out before I beleive it really exists.

 

[cheachea]

Another Free Snake Pit USA Catch Video for my SherBros :

 

[ali137]

hi i wanted to post question but i couldnt cuz i am white belt yet i wanted to ask that i had 6 months breake from mma and how do i go back and is 6 months a long time or not?and can i get fast better than before?ty lot bro for help

 

[Dece]

I think there's a couple of issues with catch wrestling. Because of the lack of quality training there's a lot of people thinking it's something else than what it's actually is. At the same time the people with access to quality training could be way to strict.

Then there's also a bunch of styles that evolved from catch wrestling like luta livre and the japanese shootwrestling. I wouldn't call those newer styles catch wrestling but at the same time I will acknowledge that the influence is there. I also believe it would be incorrect to claim it would be only catch, especially in the case of shootwrestling which was early very influenced by both Sambo, through Victor Koga and also judo. Later also BJJ became a heavy influence. Without Koga the leglock game would look completly different, can't imagine how fighters like Imanari and Sato who comes from that lineage would be fighting.

Not to mention the removal of the pin which turned it into something else. I think it was Billy Robinson in his book who mentioned how him and Thezs disliked the removal of the pin. The problem with calling shootwrestling or luta livre catch wrestling is that if you would be training in any of those styles, the for example visit a gym like the Snake pit you would be training a different style. It's not the same styles anymore.

Don't get me wrong I love the japanese style, shooto with fighters like Sato and Mach is what got me into MMA but also being trained by Roy Wood in catch I think it's hard to say that what those fighters are doing were catch wrestling.

Feel like the Snake Pit don't help. It's a war for me to get any response from them at all about potential training and I never hear of them running classes. There are a few places that teach proper catch wrestling in the UK. Chris Foran at Premier MMA is legit and so is Chris Crossan, and his student BAMMA fighter Wendle Lewis.

But it's hard to find good coaching, and so much catch knowledge is being held behind pay walls.

They have 3 classes every week, monday, tuesdays and thursdays. They also have monthly seminars for visitors the last saturday every month. Personally I don't think it's hard to get in touch with them but I met them ages ago before when Roy was only coaching freestyle. Haven't made a visit to the gym now for a good while but I've met bunch of people from all over the world training there, from Canada to Japan, from Scandinavia to Bulgaria. Sure there has to be someway those people got in contact with the gym.

As far as the heel-hook particularly, that moves history is hard to trace. It gained popularity in Japan during the 70's via Ivan Gomes. Where did Gomes get it from...? And who was using it prior to Gomes bringing it to Japan? Its hard to really find clear evidence one way or the other but the likelihood is that Gomes got it from a Brazilian catch/luta livre practitioner. If he had gotten it from Carlson Gracie, then the question would be why the technique gained essentially no steam in BJJ at the time and wasn't talked about or really documented.

I know the wrestlers in the Snake pit never did heel hooks. Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson probably never knew it, and Gotch is supposed to favor leglocks.

There's only two times I've seen the heel hook used in catch. First time is Ian Bromley who learnt it in USA from Billy Wicks. From what I understand the carnie wrestlers called that move Ankle crank. He got a video showing how to apply it on his old stockport facebook page.

The other time is Jack Mountford showing it. He got mainly a judo background but also grappled with some catch wrestlers. He also got a video showing it.

 

[Kforcer]

Y

I think there's a couple of issues with catch wrestling. Because of the lack of quality training there's a lot of people thinking it's something else than what it's actually is. At the same time the people with access to quality training could be way to strict.

Then there's also a bunch of styles that evolved from catch wrestling like luta livre and the japanese shootwrestling. I wouldn't call those newer styles catch wrestling but at the same time I will acknowledge that the influence is there. I also believe it would be incorrect to claim it would be only catch, especially in the case of shootwrestling which was early very influenced by both Sambo, through Victor Koga and also judo. Later also BJJ became a heavy influence. Without Koga the leglock game would look completly different, can't imagine how fighters like Imanari and Sato who comes from that lineage would be fighting..

This idea that all the Japanese catch guys belong to a style called "shoot-wrestling" is a bit of a misunderstanding. Also, you're off about Koga--he trained Satoru Sayama after Sayama had broken off from the UWF and started to formulate Shooto, first as a style and then as an organization. I have seen certain sources mistakenly credit Koga for being Masakatsu Funaki's mentor and the one who taught him his leglock entries (I saw this in that TV Tropes website). Not the case. Koga influenced and taught Sayama, Sayama essentially had a hand in instructing the first generation of Shooto competitors. What he taught was, according to Sayama, most prominently a mix of Karl Gotch and Viktor Koga's instruction, but I'm sure there were other things thrown in there as well.

Meanwhile, you had the guys that stayed with the UWF only to eventually go on, following its collapse, to form Pancrase, RINGs and the UWF-i. You also had Hidetaka Aso forming Submission Arts Wrestling. The guys who founded Pancrase weren't students of Sayama or Koga, but rather Yoshiaki Fujiwara and Karl Gotch. It was Fujiwara who provided Funaki, Suzuki, etc. with their foundation in leglocks and submissions generally. Karl Gotch did play a huge role though, and for a time Funaki would submit tape of every Pancrase event to Karl Gotch for his review and analysis. In fact, in the case of Gotch, he actually came up with the name for Pancrase. To this day, Pancrase refers to their no-gi grappling as "catch wrestling." RINGs had Akira Maeda as the primary influence and the UWF-i had Billy Robinson and Yuto Miyato and others as their primary instructors. Lou Thesz and Danny Hodge were also major influences in the UWF-i and Kiyoshi Tamura actually lived at Thesz's house for a time to get his game refined under Thesz's tutelage.

As far as a BJJ influence, some of the guys ended up embracing BJJ, just as some BJJ guys ended up embracing many of their techniques, but others, such as Minoru Suzuki, spurned any BJJ influence.

 

[Kforcer]

There's certainly footage of Billy Robinson observing two guys training in the UWF Snake Pit working for heel-hooks, but it doesn't necessarily prove that the heel-hook didn't come to Japan via Ivan Gomes, as that story goes, because the footage is during the UWF-i era of the 1980's, well after Gomes supposedly passed on that technique to the NJPW boys. For what it is worth, I asked Robinson directly about the heel-hook and he said it is a catch-wrestling technique

 

[Kforcer]

As far as styles looking different, well of course, something called catch-as-catch-can isn't going to be uniform. It never was. But if you compare certain guys, like for example, Lou Thesz and Sakuraba, you can see a direct line of descent. Other guys, sure the resemblance won't be there as much. Paul Prehn, the legendary collegiate coach and catch-wrestler, outlines leglocks very similar to what you later saw in the games of guys like Funaki, including the figure-four toehold. Some guys like Pat McGill were doing rolling entries into Achilles locks in the 40's and 50's that show an obvious familial resemblance to the stuff that a lot of the Japanese and Brazilian catch guys would later be famous for.

That's how it is with any style of grappling. Especially one whose very name implies an eclectic nature.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

One variation that I've seen in Catch is when someone is going for an Americana (Top Wrist Lock / Key Lock) they twist the wrist making the opponents palm go towards the ground and it makes the hold more painful and uncomfortable.

Tony Cecchine shows it here :

Edit : He says that he is not twisting and just has a particular grip on the wrist.

That was really interesting

 

[Kforcer]

That was really interesting

You seen his "motorcycle grip" Kimura? That's another interesting tweak by him, though maybe a little tricky to establish on a sweaty opponent. Its vicious though.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

They have 3 classes every week, monday, tuesdays and thursdays. They also have monthly seminars for visitors the last saturday every month. Personally I don't think it's hard to get in touch with them but I met them ages ago before when Roy was only coaching freestyle. Haven't made a visit to the gym now for a good while but I've met bunch of people from all over the world training there, from Canada to Japan, from Scandinavia to Bulgaria. Sure there has to be someway those people got in contact with the gym.

Yeah I had tried time and time again for ages, and this is genuinely the first time I've heard about their weekly classes. Couldn't tell you what the issue is though!

 

[cheachea]

For what it is worth, I asked Robinson directly about the heel-hook and he said it is a catch-wrestling technique

Thank you for posting this information.

 

[cheachea]

Jake Shannon from Scientific Wrestling and Sam Kressin who were taught by Billy Robinson just put out a DVD with bjjfanatics :

https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/new-releases/products/catch-wrestling-takedowns-by-jake-shannon

 

[Kforcer]

If you are going to make a purchase on the strength of someone having learned from Billy Robinson, I think I would recommend this fellow before anything from Jake Shannon:

https://bjjfanatics.com/products/anti-jiu-jitsu-by-kazushi-sakuraba

https://bjjfanatics.com/products/kimura-hunting-by-kazushi-sakuraba

 

[sakfjgadsyukgf]

You seen his "motorcycle grip" Kimura? That's another interesting tweak by him, though maybe a little tricky to establish on a sweaty opponent. Its vicious though.

I learned the twisting/motorcycle grip Americana & kimura years ago from a BJJ black belt who barely spoke English. Makes me suspect that there are only so many ways to twist the human body and smart people probably independently discovered many of the same concepts.

I mean, different people independently discovering stuff is true and well-documented in the history of mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Two different people supposedly invented calculus at the same time in Europe. Makes me just wanna train grappling and not worry about where stuff came from. Especially with a field like catch wrestling, which I think even the biggest proponent can admit has a lot of frauds & scammers in it.

Like, what are you really gonna learn from 'catch' that you're not gonna get from crosstraining your BJJ with a folkstyle guy who wrestled in college, really. I learn from folkstyle guys with real accomplishments in a real sport every time I step on the mats

 

[Kforcer]

I learned the twisting/motorcycle grip Americana & kimura years ago from a BJJ black belt who barely spoke English. Makes me suspect that there are only so many ways to twist the human body and smart people probably independently discovered many of the same concepts

Well there is no denying that.

As far as the scammers--well, a safe way to go is to study or study under catch guys whose actually performances drew you to them, rather than simply the promise of learning something exotic or different. I mean, Sakuraba is definitely not a scammer. Erik Paulson sure isn't. I don't think Gene Lebell is. Neither is Kiguchi, or Miyato or Tamura, etc. etc. I think certain people who promise a pure, forgotten historical form of catch-wrestling can sometimes be scammers. But if you are talking about the students of Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Billy Robinson, Fujiwara, etc., then the opposite is almost true--scammers are scarce among them. I think you could say the same for Brazilian catch and luta livre. A lot of them are practicing and teaching purely out of love for the art and its preservation.

Regarding the history--I think it is important, because for one thing, you receiving something that the people who came before you toiled and suffered to produce. So knowing their history is a way of simply being grateful. Also, it allows you to not be limited by the contemporary grappling trends, so that you are able to look through the history of the practice more effectively, if not perfectly, and possibly find things that suit you which have gone out of practice. Also, it is just cool to look back and see guys who may have died before you were born doing the same stuff you are doing. Or at least, I think that is cool.

 

[Kforcer]

Like, what are you really gonna learn from 'catch' that you're not gonna get from crosstraining your BJJ with a folkstyle guy who wrestled in college, really. I learn from folkstyle guys with real accomplishments in a real sport every time I step on the mats

You're going overboard there. Like you implied, grappling is grappling. And I agree with that. But that means you don't dismiss entire styles if you're wise, especially since the styles are so fundamentally similar.

 

[nefti]

Well there is no denying that.

As far as the scammers--well, a safe way to go is to study or study under catch guys whose actually performances drew you to them, rather than simply the promise of learning something exotic or different. I mean, Sakuraba is definitely not a scammer. Erik Paulson sure isn't. I don't think Gene Lebell is. Neither is Kiguchi, or Miyato or Tamura, etc. etc. I think certain people who promise a pure, forgotten historical form of catch-wrestling can sometimes be scammers. But if you are talking about the students of Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Billy Robinson, Fujiwara, etc., then the opposite is almost true--scammers are scarce among them. I think you could say the same for Brazilian catch and luta livre. A lot of them are practicing and teaching purely out of love for the art and its preservation.

Regarding the history--I think it is important, because for one thing, you receiving something that the people who came before you toiled and suffered to produce. So knowing their history is a way of simply being grateful. Also, it allows you to not be limited by the contemporary grappling trends, so that you are able to look through the history of the practice more effectively, if not perfectly, and possibly find things that suit you which have gone out of practice. Also, it is just cool to look back and see guys who may have died before you were born doing the same stuff you are doing. Or at least, I think that is cool.

Like neil melanson? What is his catch connection, the times he claims to have trained with karo (karo was a drug addict) and apparently not many guys from hayastan has seen him.

 

[Kforcer]

Like scott melanson? What is his catch connection, the times he claims to have trained with karo (karo was a drug addict) and apparently not many guys from hayastan has seen him.

You mean Neil Melanson. I like a lot of his material, myself. He did say that he was doing privates with Karo, so perhaps that is why. Who knows. I like his material a lot though and have found some of it directly helpful. As far as the whole catch-as-catch-can thing, he's thinking of the connection a lot of Hayastan guys have, through Gene LeBell.

 

[thugpoet]

I just don't care about lineage or what you call your style. As long as the move is effective vs high level comp I am in.

My game is rear naked, heel hook, and armbar if catch can help me get there than hola hola.

 

[Dece]

This idea that all the Japanese catch guys belong to a style called "shoot-wrestling" is a bit of a misunderstanding. Also, you're off about Koga--he trained Satoru Sayama after Sayama had broken off from the UWF and started to formulate Shooto, first as a style and then as an organization. I have seen certain sources mistakenly credit Koga for being Masakatsu Funaki's mentor and the one who taught him his leglock entries (I saw this in that TV Tropes website). Not the case. Koga influenced and taught Sayama, Sayama essentially had a hand in instructing the first generation of Shooto competitors. What he taught was, according to Sayama, most prominently a mix of Karl Gotch and Viktor Koga's instruction, but I'm sure there were other things thrown in there as well.

Nope, the only misunderstanding is failing to see that what happened in Japan was a bunch of crosstraining in different grappling sports. When the japanese MMA-fighters showed up they didn't label themselves as catch wrestlers, they were using labels like shootfighting, shoot-wrestling, shooto or hybrid wrestling.

Not to mention that Koga had students who were around, most famous was Hidetaka Aso.

Meanwhile, you had the guys that stayed with the UWF only to eventually go on, following its collapse, to form Pancrase, RINGs and the UWF-i. You also had Hidetaka Aso forming Submission Arts Wrestling. The guys who founded Pancrase weren't students of Sayama or Koga, but rather Yoshiaki Fujiwara and Karl Gotch. It was Fujiwara who provided Funaki, Suzuki, etc. with their foundation in leglocks and submissions generally. Karl Gotch did play a huge role though, and for a time Funaki would submit tape of every Pancrase event to Karl Gotch for his review and analysis. In fact, in the case of Gotch, he actually came up with the name for Pancrase. To this day, Pancrase refers to their no-gi grappling as "catch wrestling." RINGs had Akira Maeda as the primary influence and the UWF-i had Billy Robinson and Yuto Miyato and others as their primary instructors. Lou Thesz and Danny Hodge were also major influences in the UWF-i and Kiyoshi Tamura actually lived at Thesz's house for a time to get his game refined under Thesz's tutelage.

And your point is? You do mention Aso which does includes the Koga lineage.

As far as a BJJ influence, some of the guys ended up embracing BJJ, just as some BJJ guys ended up embracing many of their techniques, but others, such as Minoru Suzuki, spurned any BJJ influence.

Nope, BJJ took over. Catch wrestling is dead and so is the shootbranches when it comes to the japanese grappling sports. The only two catch wrestling gyms remaining are Hideki Suzuki and Yuki Miyato. Osamu Matsunami had another one but it's closed now. The only shootwrestling that's around moved over to the puroresu.

There's certainly footage of Billy Robinson observing two guys training in the UWF Snake Pit working for heel-hooks, but it doesn't necessarily prove that the heel-hook didn't come to Japan via Ivan Gomes, as that story goes, because the footage is during the UWF-i era of the 1980's, well after Gomes supposedly passed on that technique to the NJPW boys. For what it is worth, I asked Robinson directly about the heel-hook and he said it is a catch-wrestling technique

Would love to see that photo. I didn't say it doesn't exist in catch. I just showed the heel hook to Roy and he said they never trained those kind of leglocks in the Snake pit. I know the carnies did it and it's also worth to mention that both Gotch and Robinson traveled around the world and probably learnt a thing or two.

As far as styles looking different, well of course, something called catch-as-catch-can isn't going to be uniform. It never was. But if you compare certain guys, like for example, Lou Thesz and Sakuraba, you can see a direct line of descent. Other guys, sure the resemblance won't be there as much. Paul Prehn, the legendary collegiate coach and catch-wrestler, outlines leglocks very similar to what you later saw in the games of guys like Funaki, including the figure-four toehold. Some guys like Pat McGill were doing rolling entries into Achilles locks in the 40's and 50's that show an obvious familial resemblance to the stuff that a lot of the Japanese and Brazilian catch guys would later be famous for.

That's how it is with any style of grappling. Especially one whose very name implies an eclectic nature.

Yea, and when they nowadays look completly different they have evolved into different styles, just like judo and BJJ isn't the same anymore. I'm not american so never heard of those two guys you mentioned but looked them up. I checked the techniques in one of Prehns books, the submissions, especially the leglocks didn't look like what they did in Japan. It looked a lot more like the traditional toe holds and calf slicers you only see in traditional catch and not in shootwrestling.

Same with McGill were I watched a video I think you created. Only the achilles lock can be seen in shootwrestling, the other was just like Prehn.

If were gonna talk about standing leglock entries the shootwrestling looks a lot more like they've learnt from Sambo.

Point is they've grown apart. Catch is a sport and it's the same wherever you train it. If you go to Strickland in USA or Roy Wood in the UK you would get the same kind of wrestling. If you would go to Japan however the training would be different unless you go to a gym like Suzukis. I talked with Roy about his time coaching in Japan. He said they were very good wrestlers but they did their own thing, he was mainly criticizing them for laying on their back(guard) and doing lockflows.

Nothing wrong with it, it's just different.