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Standing up and grip fighting was literally what he did for an entire match before this lol. He just wanted to take no risks at all I guess
Alijamain Sterling is right re: BJJ
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Standing up and grip fighting was literally what he did for an entire match before this lol. He just wanted to take no risks at all I guess
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Don't get me wrong I don't like guard pulling and I like how it gets penalised at ADCC, but Aljo didn't even try and do anything when he could have passed multiple times. His team is all about gaming the rules, remember when Weidman tried to win via DQ vs Mousasi and instantly recovered when he realised he would lose the fight?
Even Merab is just doing takedowns entries and not committing to the finish after a few failed attempts in most of his fights. He gets the entry, half asses the attempt and then just racks up control time. It's basically just a dynamic entry to wall and stall/lay and pray.
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That looks ridiculous yet awesome, given it was effective. Reminds me of Charles "Krazy Horse" Bennett escaping from a crappy reverse triangle attempt in an MMA match, and slamming other guy's head into the cage wall to disengage lol.
But yeah, Sterling rightfully deserved to lose if that was the only notable sequence and he had nothing to bitch about given he signed up for sub only. It's still debatable who was the bigger bitch but given it was sub only and TD points weren't in play anyway, I'd lean toward Aljo being the bitch.
I guess it would be a fine line there. On the one hand, if you'd already built a complete guard, you should have had grips that would have prevented top guy from disengaging completely without being swept and ending up in an even worse position. Playing a guard from which top guy can just stand up and walk away is only possible under fake and gay BJJ rules because neither top nor bottom guy is allowed to just disengage and stand back up, even if he can. I think the requirement to keep other guy on the ground (allowing him to disengage if he can) would actually improve fundamental grappling for both top and bottom players.
But I suppose there is a point at which top guy should be called for passivity if he's blatantly refusing to engage and maybe you should only be allowed to stand back up once or twice in a match or something, but really depends on the flow of the match. Fundamentally I'd be reluctant to call a guy for "standing back up too much" for the same reason I'm fundamentally opposed to referee stand ups from grounded. If one guy wants the match back on the feet, get that other dude off you and do it yourself.
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I was in the middle of building to a different guard and homie was a good bit bigger and stronger than lil old me. I was also nowhere near as good at guard as I am now lol.
But yeah like I said, thresholds. There's disengaging and then there is gaming the system. I think in most cases, just stand it back up but there are always exceptions.
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Wholly agree with everything here and in sub only, there's no excuse for both players not engaging whether on the feet or on the ground if one/both chooses to butt-flop. Whatever is allowed under the rules dictates what is above table.
But regarding ruleset, let's all be honest and acknowledge that BJJ rules were concocted by a gang of dudebros who were great at playing guard and wanted to prove themselves against other styles including other grappling styles like wrestling and Judo. So they created a ruleset that favored their game at the expense of being internally consistent.
Takedowns score right? Yeah bro, matches start on the feet because we're macho Brazilians and it has to look like a fight. Erm... doesn't that risk giving up 2 points? Nah bro, we'll make it so we can just pull guard without giving up any points. Then when we sweep other guy, we'll get 2 points for putting them in the same position we just put ourselves! That's genius bro! But what if other guy is really strong or a good wrestler or something and he reverses us back over? No problemo bro, reversals won't score any points unless you do them from guard. Sangre de mata leao, you're on fire fam! And what if other guy is a great Judoka and he throws us straight into side control before we can pull guard? All over it dawg, we'll make it so they only get 2 points and no guard pass points. Awesome! So you need to suck at TDs as badly as we do and only land shitty ones that land in other guy's guard! Thug life 4eva!!!
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Absolutely agree, it's a grappling match, we are not in the first ADCC back in the day, there's a ton of footage to watch and see the tendencies of high level grapplers.
Aljo should have been fully prepared for that and with a game plan for it
Or he knew all about it and he also knew that he would just have to whine about it afterwards
An aggressive guy would have jumped on the first sight of a leg drag working, then he would get inverted on some scramble and would have get leg locked or back taken
Aljo didn't want none of that
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For guard pulling, I don't like butt scooting but a technical guard pull that starts the action in a good DLR or anykind of sweeping entry, I'm okay with it. The guy took the risk of starting from the bottom but in the goal to sweep right away, giving out points for that would just make sure that everybody can just hand fight and fool around with no action.
We see a lot of this in ADCC, boring matches with people shoving each other until the points starts.
Maybe giving a penalty of some kind but not a real point...
for the reverses, I understand where you're coming from, if you flip someone from side control or from mount, yes it should be awarded a sweep if the other guy isn't trying to submit you or has your back.
The goal of not giving out points for reversals is to make sure that people won't hesitate to try submissions and risk to end up on the bottom.
But I would be ok to change the rule if you're not into a sub or if the other guy as your back.
And the takedown to side control should give out the passing points, same thing with sweeps
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Oh yeah, pulling guard can definitely be an offensive action and in sub-only, it's completely above table. My issue is solely around scoring impact under BJJ rules. If you're starting from the feet and TDs are scored, you shouldn't be allowed to take yourself down before your opponent does, without incurring some penalty or at least some greater restriction around passivity. It would be like boxing allowing you to punch yourself in the face and knock yourself down so you get a standing 8 count to catch your breath, but it doesn't count as a knock down because you did it to yourself.
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Dawg that shit send me lol! I imagined it with the think Brazilian accent too.
More comps are making reversals 2 point scores now which is exciting. AGF recently made it so that you get 1 additional point for TDs that give "high elevation" like suplexes, high crotches, and certain throws. Given that you maintain control and it doesn't not result in a scramble. Additionally they made strong sub attempts 1 point and reversals the same as sweeps. I personally love this ruleset.
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The problem with grappling is to understand what we want to see
It's way too easy to just get your hips far and walk around until you're out of the mat.. Or just push and shove for the whole match without trying anything that will have a risk that you could get countered
They will do some grappling in the Karate combat pit, would love to see what will be the strategies for that one. But seeing two beefy guys pushing on shoving each other off the mats... I'd rather see a guard pull for some BJJ action
First, this is not a real fight, second it's not a wrestling or judo fight. With those instant wins on a throw or pins to victory. It's all about getting a sub and the point system is about who was the closest to get it if it doesn't happen. It made sense at some point, but people managed to go around it and play it.
Maybe getting rid of the points and just have judge decisions like in WNO. Good BJJ people know who was winning the match even if there's no subs. In there's nothing to do with who scored the takedown
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Again I agree with all of this in principle. Every ruleset can be gamed and it's a hallmark of elite competitors to game the rules and eek out an incremental point here and there against other high level guys.
For the record I don't like instant win via ippon throw in Judo either. It demonstrates dominance and should be scored highly but shouldn't end a match IMHO. Current Judo rules only allow two types of scores - Ippon (full point) and waza ari (half point) and even the criteria for a waza ari throw is pretty high. So now you see a lot of throw attempts that end up going scoreless and are reset on the feet.
I competed in Judo in the 90's when there were 4 types of scores: Ippon (full point), Waza ari (half point), Yuko (major advantage point) and Koka (minor advantage point) and this was when leg grabs were allowed. A koka-worthy TD was something like a botched ankle pick that still dumps uke onto a knee and then top guy manages to complete the TD in the scramble. And then progressively higher amplitude TDs up to launching uke into the air and flat onto his back with impact for ippon. Back then, most TDs were koka or yuko with waza aris here and there. But Ippons weren't that common. And that's because actually throwing someone who doesn't want to be thrown is really fucking hard. And it's possible to be passive standing up which is why enforcing passivity penalties is critical. Judo and wrestling rules require both players to move toward each other and engage on the feet. If one is moving backward, he gets deducted a point and DQed on a repeat offense. If you make both guys engage on the feet, even the shittiest TD players will eventually produce a TD for either guy. If you're a wizard on the ground, you should have a modicum of ability to put the other guy there and achieve the top position you're looking for anyway.
On the ground, I agree it should be about getting the sub, and close sub-attempts should be awarded a point IMHO which some rulesets are starting to do. IMHO 3 points for guard pass + 2 for neon belly then 4 for mount (and maybe even 4 more for back mount) is way too fucking many points. That's like 8 million points without even requiring a sub attempt. Achieving a position should merit incremental points but if that position is so dominant, then the increased potential for a sub should be its own reward. A dude who almost finishes a buggy choke from bottom side control should be rewarded for getting closer to an actual finish than top guy if he's just lay and praying.
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It takes two to tango.
The problem is you need a deterrent for both butt scooting and guys who won't engage somebody sitting on the matt and if strict stalling rules were always applied to both culprits there's be lots of double disqualifications.
Maybe if that happened for a while we'd see the problem go away but nobody's going to enforce that rule are they
The problem is you need a deterrent for both butt scooting and guys who won't engage somebody sitting on the matt and if strict stalling rules were always applied to both culprits there's be lots of double disqualifications.
Maybe if that happened for a while we'd see the problem go away but nobody's going to enforce that rule are they
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The closest to that is basically Sambo. Sambo is really what current No-Gi BJJ should be, just without the Gi and striking. Even without striking, Sambo is still the closest of all combat sports to real MMA. Its why all the sambo based MMA fighters like Fedor, Islam, Khabib, and the rest of Khabib's team had such dominant success in MMA, because its basically everything you need for functional "real" fighting. It has upper body throws (judo/greco), lower body takedowns (wrestling), and some basic ground work and leg locks (BJJ).
The one thing I hate about BJJ is how the Gracie's skewed the original BJJ competition ruleset towards the ground game over takedowns. When you look back at the history of the Gracie's, they originated from Judo. But they didn't actually master a lot of the traditional Judo throws as they only had about 2 years of actual Judo training. So once they started doing their Gracie/Vale Tudo challenges in Brazil, they had a ton of success against most people...until they went against established Judokas with good takedowns. Whenever they went against a Judoka like Kimura or the Ono Brothers, they had trouble or got destroyed. After that, they basically dis-incentivized or removed takedowns across all of BJJ. But my point is, the throws were there and all laid out for the Gracie's to learn from Judo. But instead of learning how to do takedowns, they just changed the ruleset to favor the guard. They gamed the system instead of learning from it. The lack of takedowns and ruleset is still BJJ's biggest weakness today.
Competitive BJJ has gotten so far away from "real fighting" that I laugh whenever a major BJJ player says they have a "fight" coming up. I'm a purple belt, so I like and respect the technical aspects of BJJ. But I'm also a wrestler and judoka and realize that in a real fight, you mostly just need some good takedowns, ground control, and basic guard passing. You'd never need most of the De la riva/spider/X/Y/Z guards, leg locks, and most of the other stuff off your back in an actual fight. Watch any MMA fight and you're going to see very, VERY basic guard passing and ground work. Its the same in wrestling, judo, and sambo. The matches and fast, dynamic, athletic, and over with quickly. That's how an actual fight is. Not artificially giving your opponent time to work on grips or guards from bottom while you slowly try to find a way to pass.
With no strikes in BJJ, it just incentivizes guard pulling and buttscooting. I know people will just say "Aljo, just learn how to pass guard", but once you're in the Purple, Brown, Black belt ranks, everyone has good guards and its a lot of effort to pass as the top guy, but no rewards if you don't. Without strikes, it artificially gives the person on bottom more moves and time then they'd actually get in MMA or a real fight. Despite the fact that if this was MMA or a street fight, the top player would have all the advantages of gravity, punches, and the ground (grass, rocks, asphalt, etc.) So why would someone want to willingly go into a guard and have to do extra work when realistically, they could put less effort into a takedown and end up in side control? Or at worst, they end up in guard/half guard anyways? A black belt in Judo or an NCAA wrestler can easily pass a black belt in BJJ's guard off of a takedown. So why would they be incentivized to go into a guard and have to work much harder to pass? Like I said, there is no incentive and the only people who idolize this mentality are mostly bottom BJJ players. But it dilutes the original self defense intent of BJJ.
IMO, the ruleset across all BJJ should be that if you pull guard or go to your back, you lose two points. Its the closest way to simulate a takedown in a real fight without completely changing the ruleset to Judo or Wrestling, or giving judoka/wrestlers a huge advantage.
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Disagree with this. In MMA, you can disengage all you want and stand back up to either strike or hit another takedown into a dominant position like side control. A good example is Topuria vs. Ryan Hall. Why would he willingly go to the ground into a neutral position (guard/half guard) or potentially bad position when he can use a tool like a takedown or strike to get into a better position (side control) with less effort?
In sport BJJ, they take away all those additional tools to artifiically favor the person on bottom. The ref isn't going to stand someone up butt scooting/pulling guard to force wrestling, you can't slam standing guard pullers, and you can't throw punches or kicks to get them to move if they sit to their butt. So the top person ends up in a back and forth trying to pass guard, but there are tons of matches where the guy on top can't pass or the person on bottom can't sweep or submit. So it becomes a long boring stalemate. That's also why BJJ will never be a major spectator sport like wrestling, judo, sambo, boxing, or karate.
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There is so much incorrect information here. Idk if you don't do bjj, don't compete, or what but let's address this. Bjj is a grappling sport so your opitions are to engage or disengage. You can't attack or advance by running away. Regardless of if you're on top or bottom, you have to move forward.
Bringing up mma is completely irrelevant because the ruleset is not transitional to bjj. You can still engage without entering the guard. You have additional tools that allow this, so it is not the same.
And no sport bjj doesn't favor the person on bottom. The top person has more means to score than the bottom and guard pulling is often penalized, refs will absolutely stand you up, and penaltiesare regularly given out for stalling/disengaging. You can slam in many rule sets but, from experience, you rarely have the chance to slam when the person is aware of the threat and it often doesn't amount to much.
And if you find the action of attempting passes, sweeps, and subs to be a "a boring stalemate " then grappling probably just isn't for you. That's literally active guard play. All of which doesn't apply to this match because ALJO NEVER TRIES TO DO ANYTHING! This was a failure on the refs part for not punishing Aljo's inactivity.
Sambo has almost no popularity outside of Russia. Karate is much less popular than bjj as a watched sport. As is judo despite its Olympic presence. Wrestling is the only one that can be considered a major spectacle sport out of the 4. And even then it's popularity is very comparable bjjs despite its seniority.
There's plenty of valid criticism to be had in regards to sib only bjj and the meta in IBJJF but your claims come off as an outsider perspective or based on third hand comments. It is ridiculous to defend someone for turning their back and walking away (as if that would at all be logical in a fight) because they don't want to take any risk while admonishing guard pulling for the sane reasons.
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Charles Olivera regularly uses complex open guards and guards that are often considered "sport bjj guards". Open guards are used by many mma fighters to initiate quick sweeps in transition, create space to scramble, or attack leg locks.
It certainly isn't very common because it comes with obvious risks and takes a high level of skill to do properly. Plus the mma meta punishes the bottom fighter. It's safer to play a wrestle heavy game to secure rounds on control.
It's not a street fight. The top player still has more advantages than the bottom player even without strikes. Top player has more ways to score and often gets awarded decisions in close matches because it is seen as the more dominant position. Sucking at passing guard is a personal problem. If you cannot compete with high level guard players...then don't compete until you can pass guard. Black belts pass each other's guards all the time. There's no excuse for not engaging. Just suck less.
Disagree about judokas and ncaa guys. They definitely have a very power skill set and transition over with an advantage but claiming they easily pass black belt guards is not true in comp. Even phenomenal wrestlers like Ed Ruth start having trouble at the high blue and purple belt levels. And once again, not being good a passing guard is a personal problem. If your plan falls apart the second someone builds a guard then you need to be in a different sport.
If your entire game stops working the second you can't get a takedown there is a problem. A massive problem. You need to be able to pass guard. It's not debatable.
The "sport bjj doesn't work on the streets" argument is dumb and only propagated by people who have not had to use bjj in a real fight. Sport bjj works on the streets and most sport bjj people know takedowns. Guard pulling is not as common as outside spectators believe it to be. Most people try to get takedowns because most rulesets reward you more for it. And most people are taught that being on top is more favorable.
Most rule sets limit how you can pull guard, don't let you sit, and/or deduct points for pulling. The issue isn't guard pulling. The issue is willingness to engage
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Any passing really
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Respectfully disagree, I see martial arts as symbolic, you can KO someone who has full guard on you, we see this in MMA, so passing guard shouldn’t be required, whereas pulling guard in a real life fight is just poor tactics, unless you’re fighting a complete newb.
