GSP's wrestling now that the Caucasians have taken over?

[Poatan Power]

Not denigrating D1 per se but in terms of MMA grappling were they that good? (more referring to Kos,Fitch and those type of guys).

If a guy with zero wrestling can train with the Canadian team and then just merk them on the mat, not sure how good they really were if that makes sense.

Are you trolling or being genuine?

GSP out grappled Matt Hughes.

Yes, their wrestling 'in terms of MMA' was that good. Fitch had a ridiculously good career outside of his GSP losses.

 

[Boxingfan998]

I'm not sure I would consider GSP's wrestling in MMA "the best in history", I would rather say that he was the best at what he did in terms of combat style, and how he integrated the wrestling into those flash takedowns. Obviously, the caucasian wrestling style is superior in terms of pure wrestling, it's some of the best in the world, but these fighters have a completely different fighting style than GSP, with a much bigger almost exclusive focus on wrestling (whilst GSP has a Karate background and excellent striking).

So I do believe in a pure wrestling match that GSP would be beaten, not just by Caucasians but any pro/olympic wrestler.
However in an MMA fight, I believe GSP in his prime beats all these Caucasians, simply because he has an explosiveness and speed none of them have.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Chris Wade (D3) is the best wrestler any of Islam, Khabib, or Khamzat has faced. He's currently a FW

GSP beat D1 national champs and AA's

 

[RiotWyatt]

People saying that all GSP had was a double leg don't know wresting or never watched GSP fight.

 

[Patman]

Wrestling is a broader art than most people give it credit for. GSP is very good at certain aspects of wrestling, when striking is mixed in. He would get wiped out on the wrestling mat by a lot of athletes.

 

[Dionysian]

If you want to talk grappling evolution and tie it to GSP I'd personally tie it not to TDs (GSP was fantastic at/likely still GOAT of in MMA) but rather to control/ability to advance position. (which, yes, seems to have improved relative to GSP) When a Khabib gets you down... you stay down. And he isn't sitting in your guard that round either. Also, the fence work of Khabib speaks for itself. Fence is death against Khabib, whereas it was (relatively-speaking) a greater takedown safety vs GSP.

 

[Luckyme]

The main difference I see between American D-1 wrestlers and Eastern wrestling is chain wrestling. They don't just shoot once but come at you relentlessly. Think GSP's blast double vs. Khabib low single / angle pick that usually fails but then seamlessly transitions to multiple TDs until he eventually gets you down.

Aside from traditional wrestling takedowns, they also employ TDs from judo and Sambo. Lots of trips and throws. You can see the judo influence in Khabib's game but guys like Islam and Petr Yan utilize judo throws even more extensively. Ditto for Fedor.

Personally, I love the judo style takedowns. Not only are they more elegant than your traditional wrestling single/double legs but more efficient because they require less energy.

 

[NickDiaz]

Gas vs. Electric debate <Lmaoo>

 

[markys00]

What's crazy is his background is actually Karate. Never had high school/collegiate wrestling experience, and never wrestled until he started MMA. Meanwhile, this wrestling skill of his is being compared to the guys of today who have been doing it since they were like 4. I think that's just something worth pointing out. It reflects his pure talent and skill, and the work he's put in on how fast he learned to reach a certain level though he didn't started at a very young age. If his MMA wrestling has been widely considered as one of the best for years, could you imagine if he started doing it when he was a kid?

I think his karate helped him with his best wrestling asset, which was timing. But his ability was awesome too

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?

The United States ended up with 9 medals in the last Olympics, and by normal rankings came in 3rd behind ROC and Japan. By any rankings they came ahead of any of the Caucus nations. So why do you think American wrestling is inferior?

Other than that, the transition between pure wrestling and MMA has never been automatic. Quite a few Olympic gold medalists have failed in MMA.

How good was GSP's wrestling compared to today? Impossible to tell without a time machine. How good is American wrestling compared to the Caucus countries? At least as good and arguably better going by Olympic and world championship results.

 

[Gio]

I think his karate helped him with his best wrestling asset, which was timing. But his ability was awesome too

Exactly, just how he mentioned it. The angles, timing, and ability to cover distance that he learned in Karate made him really good in setting up his takedowns.

 

[TorontoTO]

UFC has abandoned American wrestlers, they're all going to Belator.

The idea that American D1 wrestlers can't compete with the Wrestlers from the caucus region is nonsense. Gables just ran through the Olympics without breaking a sweat, and is still going for his 4th national title.

Sadly, North American talent isn't in high demand in the UFC unless you have rainbow colored hair.

Raufeon Stots beat Magomedov, who Yan had two close bouts with, pretty thoroughly and it was mainly a grappling bout.

 

[TorontoTO]

I think part of the issue though is that "just stand up" has become such a widely used tactic these days that looking to win via control alone is difficult.

Previously I think a lot of US wrestlers really benefited a lot from LnP tactics, BJJ guys who be happy to enguage them on the ground throwing up sub atempts and the wrestler would just defend from the top and win a decision. Now though the BJJ guy is probably going to give up his back to stand back up and escape quite fast so pushing hard for a takedown becomes a waste of energy.

A lot of the Dagistani guys sucess is I'd say based on there having good offencive sub games, good enough that its not easy to "just stand up" against them.

Dana hates wrestlers who rely on control. Just look at the guys he has let go to the Bellator when we all know that the UFC has matching rights to every contract

 

[TorontoTO]

Khamzat beat a D1 wrestler in the first round by taking him down on his first attempt and pounding him out. I remember GSP having long drawn-out fights with his D1 wrestlers.

Wait who is this D1 wrestler? Marshman? McKee?

 

[TorontoTO]

Dagestanis are a hot ticket for Dana's butt buddies in Dubai. That market is huge for him. He is going to actually promote these guys unlike any other fighter who he'll just bash. So favorable matchups all day.
This doesn't diminish the talent of these guys. But khabib fought mainly strikers. Islam is ranked like number 5 and probably higher based off beating Drew dober and Dan hooker.. and khamzat is apparently going to be top ten after beating fringe 15 dudes.
It's the fad right now.

Dana saw WWE making $50 mill per show in Saudi Arabia and wants to get in on that Arab money

 

[moreorless87]

There's a lot of truth to this. These caucus guys are great, but they're not doing anything mind blowing. There are grapplers from several other countries who are on that level, but it just seems like the UFC is trying to tap into that russian/dagestani market at the moment.

A big issue is that these guys don't really have many career prospects other than MMA which means there cheaper to bring in, or rather that they try MMA by themselves rather than the UFC having to throw money to get them to switch.

 

[grimballer]

gsp was good athlete and his karate background helped him with his timing and explosiveness. he was also well rounded fighter and was able to mix things up.

wrestlers he was facing were mostly one dimensional (koscheck/hughes) or not that high level (fitch/shields)

the only guy he faced with high level wrestling and decent striking was hendricks and he arguably lost that fight.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Prime GSP would have taken down Khabib, Khamat, or anybody else, like he did to everyone, and with ease at that.
His double leg takedown was almost unstoppable, and he could pull it at any moments

 

[MCS]

Khabib and Islam bring both the wrestling and grappling, GnP, and have some stand-up to mix it with takedowns, which fighters from GSP's time lacked. Shields and Fitch were less effective getting the fight to the ground.

I can't imagine a guy like Kampmann at 155 would do well against them. Khabib and Islam take down everyone and the round is over when they do.

 

[Oscar Madison]

Become UFC Champ.

Successfully defend Championship at least 10 times as opponents make adjustments to defeat the Champ.

Then there can be an honest discussion.