International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[Rholk]

I've asked this before with no answers here. If Hamas is in that hospital, does it not demonstrate that the IOF has failed as this hospital and city was cleared?

You're right on some level there, if anything this might unfortunately prove that that a sustained IDF/Israeli presence in Gaza might be necessary to achieve security

 

[kflo]

This is basically the "Free Palestine from Hamas" talking point. I agree Hamas is bad and Gazans are better off without them or at least without the military commanders who dragged into the war like Yahya Sinwar and Muhammad Deif.

But after Hamas is removed, then what? High level Israeli politicians have already said they won't tolerate a two state solution. What is the alternative? Certainly those same politicians aren't going to endorse a one state solution with equal rights.

The Palestinians in the West Bank are not led by Hamas and yet they are still subject to displacement. If anything Hamas before Oct 7th at least protected Gazans from that while the PA rule in the West Bank leaves Palestinians at the mercy of settlers. This is what Zionist posters like you will never address. You will never put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians who have no options before them except using explosions of violence to shake the status quo.

Again, the no options other than to blow shit up position is nonsense.

Diplomatic pressure from a position of peace is far more likely to result in a good outcome than continuing to put eggs in blowing shit up.

I agree the West Bank is problematic but Israel still ultimately needs to be part of finding a solution for the Palestinian people, because that’s the key to solving their problem of the Palestinian people. That includes the West Bank, and compromises for peace will ultimately need to be made. But it has to start with a promise for peace, from both sides. No tolerance for abuses on either side.

And the idea that Hamas protected pals from settlers is just a dumb take. Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally. All Hamas did was ensure Gaza would need to be restricted. While also literally stealing from their people.

You are agreeing that Hamas bad, but again, aren’t dealing with the “Hamas still governing” part. There’s zero hope as long as that’s the case.

 

[kflo]

That would all be cool and understandable if Israel didn’t for decades before hamas was even born: illegally increase its occupation of Palestinian land, kill, violate international law, treaties and engage in ethnic cleansing. Hamas is just the current excuse.

Offer a path forward: lol thats only for debates on a karate forum! Facts all point to Israel being hellbent on and actually wiping out Palestinians

lol. Leave it to you to ignore the wars waged on israel that coincided with those changes.

Palestinian population growth laughs at your nonsense.

 

[kflo]

Why am i not surprised that the biggest terrorist hub since the start of the war getting fucked by the IDF upsets you?
The only thing getting massacred in there is Hamas' dream of a resurgence behind IDF lines.

No, no, no. There were never any terrorists in the hospital! That was debunked!

 

[Islam Imamate]

I disagree, those events happened largely outside of the US sphere of influence, Biden on the other hand is obviously in a position of very strong influence and has directly helped to facilitate what is happening in Gaza.

Biden didn't exactly plan to have Oct 7th happen

Again, the no options other than to blow shit up position is nonsense.

Its the truth. Hamas is wrong to go after civilians but IDF soldiers in the occupied territories should be fair game. They are occupiers just like Russian soldiers in the Donbas and Crimea, are Ukrainians wrong to throw molotov cocktails at Russians soldiers?

Diplomatic pressure from a position of peace is far more likely to result in a good outcome than continuing to put eggs in blowing shit up.

Yeah that worked so well for the Palestinians in the West Bank.

Would you say that Ukrainians should use diplomatic pressure from a position of peace as well?

I agree the West Bank is problematic but Israel still ultimately needs to be part of finding a solution for the Palestinian people, because that’s the key to solving their problem of the Palestinian people. That includes the West Bank, and compromises for peace will ultimately need to be made. But it has to start with a promise for peace, from both sides. No tolerance for abuses on either side.

The status quo before Oct 7th was endless tolerance for abuses from the Israeli side.

And the idea that Hamas protected pals from settlers is just a dumb take. Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally. All Hamas did was ensure Gaza would need to be restricted. While also literally stealing from their people.

Its partly true though. There was a lot that went into the withdrawal but before Oct 7th Gazans weren't being displaced by settlers, it was the Palestinians under the PA who were and still are. Even now its only accelerated and yet you'll ignore that. Address that if you want Palestinians to believe in the peace process first and foremost.

You are agreeing that Hamas bad, but again, aren’t dealing with the “Hamas still governing” part. There’s zero hope as long as that’s the case.

Let's not pretend that Hamas being removed will lead to a path to peace, everything we've seen from Israeli politicians suggests otherwise.

 

[Islam Imamate]

lol. Leave it to you to ignore the wars waged on israel that coincided with those changes.

That doesn't give Israel the right to take territory and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians but not surprised you're quick to excuse the dispossession and and occupation.

Palestinian population growth laughs at your nonsense.

The Uyghur population is also growing, I guess all is well in East Turkestan too right?

 

[mjfan23]

lol. Leave it to you to ignore the wars waged on israel that coincided with those changes.

Palestinian population growth laughs at your nonsense.

The world pretty unanimously doesn’t agree with what you are suggesting. Maybe only a few genocide craving fools on a karate forum would. When it comes to population as an argument: your envy of their fertility rates isn’t the key stat, the kill count is! And Israel just like illegal occupation of land has much more blood on their hands.

 

[moreorless87]

Biden didn't exactly plan to have Oct 7th happen

He didnt but he did seem to pretty much go along with the new status quo that Trump started and he has obviously had a choice in how he reacts to those events.

 

[Islam Imamate]

He didnt but he did seem to pretty much go along with the new status quo that Trump started and he has obviously had a choice in how he reacts to those events.

The original claim was that these things popping off is Biden's fault which is absurd.

 

[moreorless87]

The original claim was that these things popping off is Biden's fault which is absurd.

It is in part his fault I'd say but certainly not just his fault.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It is in part his fault I'd say but certainly not just his fault.

How?

 

[kflo]

That doesn't give Israel the right to take territory and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians but not surprised you're quick to excuse the dispossession and and occupation.

The Uyghur population is also growing, I guess all is well in East Turkestan too right?

It absolutely gives Israel the right to protect themselves against future attacks. Waging war and losing doesn’t just have all parties start the game over at 0-0 or reset the chess board back to the first move.

Do you think Israel was “hellbent on wiping out Palestinians”?

 

[kflo]

The world pretty unanimously doesn’t agree with what you are suggesting. Maybe only a few genocide craving fools on a karate forum would. When it comes to population as an argument: your envy of their fertility rates isn’t the key stat, the kill count is! And Israel just like illegal occupation of land has much more blood on their hands.

Lol at “the world”…….

Again, you’ll never actually address or care about the safety of Israelis. Or even the best interests of the Palestinian people. You’ll jump in and talk about “the world” (“UN”) and then disappear.

 

[SammyPops]

You're right on some level there, if anything this might unfortunately prove that that a sustained IDF/Israeli presence in Gaza might be necessary to achieve security

You're right on some level there, if anything this might unfortunately prove that that a sustained IDF/Israeli presence in Gaza might be necessary to achieve security

Maybe like many have argued since the start there is no military way to 'achieve security'.

I presume everyone knows this and is turning a blind eye while Israel makes gaza uninhabitable.

lol double quote.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It absolutely gives Israel the right to protect themselves against future attacks. Waging war and losing doesn’t just have all parties start the game over at 0-0 or reset the chess board back to the first move.

Protecting from future attacks does not entitle Israel to take land via conquest and to settle it, that is against international law which is why even the US and Germany recognize the settlements as illegal. But again, not surprised that you're quick to make excuses for Israel's breaches of international law.

Do you think Israel was “hellbent on wiping out Palestinians”?

I don't know about that but if they knew they could get away with it they would absolutely expel all of them from both Gaza and the West Bank.

What do you think about East Turkestan? Everyone calls the campaign by the CCP against the Uyghurs a genocide and yet the Uyghur population has increased over the last decade.

 

[kflo]

Biden didn't exactly plan to have Oct 7th happen

Its the truth. Hamas is wrong to go after civilians but IDF soldiers in the occupied territories should be fair game. They are occupiers just like Russian soldiers in the Donbas and Crimea, are Ukrainians wrong to throw molotov cocktails at Russians soldiers?

Yeah that worked so well for the Palestinians in the West Bank.

Would you say that Ukrainians should use diplomatic pressure from a position of peace as well?

The status quo before Oct 7th was endless tolerance for abuses from the Israeli side.

Its partly true though. There was a lot that went into the withdrawal but before Oct 7th Gazans weren't being displaced by settlers, it was the Palestinians under the PA who were and still are. Even now its only accelerated and yet you'll ignore that. Address that if you want Palestinians to believe in the peace process first and foremost.

Let's not pretend that Hamas being removed will lead to a path to peace, everything we've seen from Israeli politicians suggests otherwise.

Gazan’s weren’t displaced by settlers because Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and Gaza doesn’t have the same value to Israeli’s as the West Bank.

Ukranian’s are defending against an attack on their land. Hamas came onto Israeli soil and started a war with their neighbor. Gaza <> Ukraine.

And what would killing IDF soldiers deployed for mandatory service accomplish for them?

How should Israel have dealt with Gaza after Gaza elected a terror group determined to eliminate them and kill their people? Full sovereignty and open borders and freedom of movement?

 

[Rholk]

I

Maybe like many have argued since the start there is no military way to 'achieve security'.

I presume everyone knows this and is turning a blind eye while Israel makes gaza uninhabitable.

lol double quote.

I dont think many people view the military way a great option, but Imo the October 7th attack might have shown it's the only way to achieve an acceptable.level of security.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ukranian’s are defending against an attack on their land. Hamas came onto Israeli soil and started a war with their neighbor. Gaza <> Ukraine.

I'm not talking about Gaza, I'm talking about the West Bank which you keep avoiding. The West Bank is internationally recognized as occupied territory, therefore the Palestinians there have a right to resist the occupation which displaces them and allows settlers to commit violence against them.

And what would killing IDF soldiers deployed for mandatory service accomplish for them?

Enacting a cost for the occupation.

 

[mjfan23]

Lol at “the world”…….

Again, you’ll never actually address or care about the safety of Israelis. Or even the best interests of the Palestinian people. You’ll jump in and talk about “the world” (“UN”) and then disappear.

safety of Israelis? Did you not go to school? Oblivious to history?

All stats and facts from illegal land occupation to kill counts over the last 7 or so decades prove what you are arguing as false.

If you flipped the question and instead asked about the safety of Palestinians and best interests of the people of Israel we could have the conversation.

As for the UN part: FFS the world governing body with global representation> opinion of a genocide supporter on a karate forum!

 

[kflo]

Protecting from future attacks does not entitle Israel to take land via conquest and to settle it, that is against international law which is why even the US and Germany recognize the settlements as illegal. But again, not surprised that you're quick to make excuses for Israel's breaches of international law.

Here’s a list of disputed territories globally:

List of territorial disputes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To claim that wars don’t result in territorial disputes or that they automatically get to reset back to pre-war status isn’t reality.

I don't know about that but if they knew they could get away with it they would absolutely expel all of them from both Gaza and the West Bank.

What would Palestinian’s do if they “could get away with it”?

Again, the people of Gaza would have had a lot greater chance at peaceful coexistence if they weren’t dedicated to wiping Israel off the map.

What do you think about East Turkestan? Everyone calls the campaign by the CCP against the Uyghurs a genocide and yet the Uyghur population has increased over the last decade.

The abuses on Uyghurs are not even comparable in scale, scope, government lead. And they saw a plummeting of their birth rates and population growth.