How did Sakuraba beat Rampage, Vitor if it took him 1 hour to beat Royce?

[Kforcer]

Classic interview but it's from 95.
Dont you consider that several years before there were guys "doing it all" in Shooto?

No, that's not true. There were people essentially "doing it all" in Shooto from almost the beginning. Really, this whole idea about a guy who was the "first to do it all" in MMA is as muddled a discussion as it gets. Certainly, the early Shooto guys, and I mean, the 80's Shooto guys, trained in striking, grappling and wrestling. Their positional grappling was lacking in many cases, but part of that was due to training for the rules they competed in, which basically mandated focusing on submissions over position on the ground because you only had either 20 or 30 seconds before you would be stood-up and no striking to the face.

Manabu Yamada came from a Seidokan karate background and he is a legendary submission wizard. Naoki Sakurada, one of Sakurai's mentors, was an effective striker and also very good with submissions. Noboru Asahi was an excellent wrestler, a premier submission artist and a good striker. And in Pancrase, Funaki, Shamrock and Bas could compete in all those areas fairly effectively. Certainly, the Shootbox guys that went back and forth with MMA could do so, such as Takehiro Murahama or Naoyuki Taira. And even if you argued all those cases, nobody could argue that Hayato Sakurai was as well-rounded as it got.

 

[Kforcer]

because Pride was fake, Rampage himself confirmed it:

Spoiler

Did you even read what he said? He said he hasn't done any fake fights yet.

 

[GSP_37]

Saku vs Royce was a special rules match, not surprised MF'ers. I think original intent was unlimited time limit.

 

[Oooxente]

I could believe the back problems thing, but either way, the direction he took is disappointing. I remember when he said he was training with Karo Parisyan, I got excited, thinking he'd perhaps started to care about something other than his boxing again. But I don't know if that went anywhere.

He had a lot of good people around him.
But
its very common to see a fighter getting extremely comfortable with his own bread and butter,even more when its successful.
It happened with Aldo.
Woodley is a very recent case.
When they get inside they go with what they know it works,even if it’s clear its not being effective.

He fought more well rounded for sure. Just think it was early enough in his career against sakuraba that wasn't quite as technically sound positionally and submission wise. So the smaller saku was able to get the position and sub him. As his career went on he became increasingly more difficult to sub when he was on the floor was more what I was getting too in my previous posts about not being as refined as it wasn't until another 29 fights later that he was next subbed against Jones. Cause yeah he absolutely turned 1 trick pony with Juanito. It was a great 1 trick but you knew what he was going to do, box and sprawl.

The change in the ambience help him a lot also.
UFC rule set and the large cage was a perfect fit to his new style.
The fact the whoever fought him was worried about getting slammed hard as a payback for trying helped a lot.

 

[blaccbeard]

Did you even read what he said? He said he hasn't done any fake fights yet.

lol as if he would admit he himself has done fake fights. He's literally been in squash matches with Japanese pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience, zero. That is literally a fake fight whether Rampage was in on it or not. All the Pride legends padded their records with pro wrestlers with little to no MMA experience. I believe Sakuraba was just the 1 Pro wrestler that Pride wanted to push as their National favourite face of the company.

Rampage and other past Pride fighters and associates have admitted there were fake fights, even Crocop's former manager in Pride admitted he did fixed fights(just look at the "fight" with the guy in the fuckin Luchador mask for proof). We have proof that pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience were used to job to established MMA stars to pad their records.

-Plus the refs wore ear pieces like WWE refs to receive cues from the back.
-Plus Pride was never sanctioned or commissioned by any recognized athletic body except for the 2 cards they did stateside.
-Plus they gave out roids like candy to their fighters according to Heath Herring and others.
-Plus they ultimately got shut down cause they couldn't keep their TV contracts due to rampant corruption and being used as a gambling den by the Yakuza and because they too often blurred the lines between legitimate sport and sports entertainment.

That's all i need to see, there's more than enough proof for me to consider that ALL of Pride was fake to me. It was fun as hell to watch, but so was WWE back in the day, Pride is on the same level as WWE to me, pure sports entertainment.

 

[Kforcer]

He had a lot of good people around him.
But
its very common to see a fighter getting extremely comfortable with its bread and butter,even more when its successful.
It happened with Aldo.
Woodley is a very recent case.
When they get inside they go with what they know it works,even if it’s clear its not being effective.


The change in the ambience help him a lot also.
UFC rule set and the large cage was a perfect fit to his new style.
The fact the whoever fought him was worried about getting slammed hard as a payback for trying helped a lot.

Oyama was a funny thing--he essentially absorbed Tito Ortiz's Team Punishment, including Ortiz himself. I've never heard of such a thing happening before with a team as a well-known as Team Punishment was. Its especially unusual, I think, that the gym leader himself moved into the new team.

But yeah, I think it definitely helped that he was the training partner for one of the best light heavyweights in the world. That has to be a huge factor in why he shot up the ranks so quickly. Even in his pro-debut against Marvin Eastman, a guy who--with his prior Muay Thai background--should have been far more well-rounded than him, he was able to do basically everything Eastman did on equal terms. Maybe after leaving Oyama, he didn't have someone like Ortiz who had the authority in their relationship to hold him accountable and push him. Its possible anyway. I mean, there's no way that Ortiz wasn't a huge boon to him in his early career. That's about as good a scenario as you could wish for as a light-heavyweight entering the sport in that era.

 

[Kforcer]

lol as if he would admit he himself has done fake fights.

Well, in that case, there's no point in using his word as a support for your position if you don't think his word carries any integrity. You can't just pick the parts of what he said that support your position and ignore the parts that don't.

 

[Kforcer]

lol as if he would admit he himself has done fake fights. He's literally been in squash matches with Japanese pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience, zero. That is literally a fake fight whether Rampage was in on it or not. All the Pride legends padded their records with pro wrestlers with little to no MMA experience. I believe Sakuraba was just the 1 Pro wrestler that Pride wanted to push as their National favourite face of the company.

Rampage and other past Pride fighters and associates have admitted there were fake fights, even Crocop's former manager in Pride admitted he did fixed fights(just look at the "fight" with the guy in the fuckin Luchador mask for proof). We have proof that pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience were used to job to established MMA stars to pad their records.

-Plus the refs wore ear pieces like WWE refs to receive cues from the back.
-Plus Pride was never sanctioned or commissioned by any recognized athletic body except for the 2 cards they did stateside.
-Plus they gave out roids like candy to their fighters according to Heath Herring and others.
-Plus they ultimately got shut down cause they couldn't keep their TV contracts due to rampant corruption and being used as a gambling den by the Yakuza and because they too often blurred the lines between legitimate sport and sports entertainment.

That's all i need to see, there's more than enough proof for me to consider that ALL of Pride was fake to me. It was fun as hell to watch, but so was WWE back in the day, Pride is on the same level as WWE to me, pure sports entertainment.

Basically everything you say is wrong here. You really think that Dos Caras versus CroCop wasn't a real fight...?

There's no point in responding to all of it but, 99% of what you say is either incorrect or irrelevant as far as whether or not Pride fights were worked. Sakuraba was not the choice to be the face of the company. Takada was far more popular as a pro-wrestler. So was Kiyoshi Tamura. So was Tokimitsu Ishizawa. So were Sano and Anjo. Sakuraba jobbed constantly as a professional wrestler. He rose to prominence because he won fights.

 

[gono btw]

lol as if he would admit he himself has done fake fights. He's literally been in squash matches with Japanese pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience, zero. That is literally a fake fight whether Rampage was in on it or not. All the Pride legends padded their records with pro wrestlers with little to no MMA experience. I believe Sakuraba was just the 1 Pro wrestler that Pride wanted to push as their National favourite face of the company.

Rampage and other past Pride fighters and associates have admitted there were fake fights, even Crocop's former manager in Pride admitted he did fixed fights(just look at the "fight" with the guy in the fuckin Luchador mask for proof). We have proof that pro wrestlers with ZERO mma experience were used to job to established MMA stars to pad their records.

-Plus the refs wore ear pieces like WWE refs to receive cues from the back.
-Plus Pride was never sanctioned or commissioned by any recognized athletic body except for the 2 cards they did stateside.
-Plus they gave out roids like candy to their fighters according to Heath Herring and others.
-Plus they ultimately got shut down cause they couldn't keep their TV contracts due to rampant corruption and being used as a gambling den by the Yakuza and because they too often blurred the lines between legitimate sport and sports entertainment.

That's all i need to see, there's more than enough proof for me to consider that ALL of Pride was fake to me. It was fun as hell to watch, but so was WWE back in the day, Pride is on the same level as WWE to me, pure sports entertainment.

Mediocre assessments.

> About ear pieces:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

> About Roids:

Spoiler: Roids in UFC

Steroids were fully ingrained in the culture of the UFC by the time Kerr arrived.

Randy (The Natural) Couture, who debuted in the Octagon one event before Kerr, dismissed UFC’s testing protocol at the time as illegitimate.

“Everyone knew it was a joke,” Couture said. “They basically tossed you a cup and sent you to the bathroom, but I don't know why they even did it. I think it was to cross off a box.”

Kerr said doctors conducting pre-fight medicals ignored obvious warning signs of his steroid use.

"I remember sitting across the table from the doctor, and the doctor looking at my liver enzymes,” Kerr said. “When you do anabolics in high amounts it messes with your liver enzymes. The doctor was looking at me and looking at the liver enzymes and looking at me. He said, 'Do you realize this is eight times the normal amount you're supposed to have?' I said, ‘Yeah,' and that was it. They allowed me to fight."

> About Fixed Fights:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/


The most hardcore version was Big Daddy´s, who claimed that 90% of early Pride´s fights were fixed.
Give us your assessment about that... if you can...

Spoiler: inb4

 

[nemo]

The only Sakuraba fights that I know were 100% real were the ones where he got his ass kicked in by Wandy Silva.

 

[Kforcer]

The only Sakuraba fights that I know were 100% real were the ones where he got his ass kicked in by Wandy Silva.

Unless those are the only Sakuraba fights you've seen and the rest were his NJPW matches or his movie fights, then this post makes no sense.

 

[HHJ]

Correct me if i am wrong the only fight without a TM was Royce v Saku.
The Gracies asked for it.

But the Igor vs saku fight I remember being unusually long...

 

[Kforcer]

But the Igor vs saku fight I remember being unusually long...

It wasn't. It had the same rules and structure of all the other fights. They fought a 15-minute round and then were going to go into overtime, but Sakuraba couldn't continue.

 

[HHJ]

It wasn't. It had the same rules and structure of all the other fights. They fought a 15-minute round and then were going to go into overtime, but Sakuraba couldn't continue.

Ok. It was just the 15 min rd I was thinking of. Ridikulus

 

[HHJ]

Oyama was a funny thing--he essentially absorbed Tito Ortiz's Team Punishment, including Ortiz himself. I've never heard of such a thing happening before with a team as a well-known as Team Punishment was. Its especially unusual, I think, that the gym leader himself moved into the new team.

But yeah, I think it definitely helped that he was the training partner for one of the best light heavyweights in the world. That has to be a huge factor in why he shot up the ranks so quickly. Even in his pro-debut against Marvin Eastman, a guy who--with his prior Muay Thai background--should have been far more well-rounded than him, he was able to do basically everything Eastman did on equal terms. Maybe after leaving Oyama, he didn't have someone like Ortiz who had the authority in their relationship to hold him accountable and push him. Its possible anyway. I mean, there's no way that Ortiz wasn't a huge boon to him in his early career. That's about as good a scenario as you could wish for as a light-heavyweight entering the sport in that era.

I remember that fight,and ken shamrock was commentating and was impressed w rampage

 

[the ambush]

Rampage said himself yakuza squad offer him alot of money to throw a fight against sakaruba and rampage was brave enough to said no to them. So yeah that makes sakaruba win over rampage even more impresive.

Yakuza gangsters go easy on non-Japanese unless they have reason not to

 

[the ambush]

The yakuza controlled Pride FC and everybody was using steroids. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those Pride fights were fixed.

I am not surprised the Yakuza gangsters had a share in PRIDE FC and years before their promotion went under their own nation had given up on MMA and fighting sports. A reasonable person would expect PRIDE FC to eventually tank because the Japanese fans did not care.

 

[Oooxente]

But the Igor vs saku fight I remember being unusually long...

Didn’t end in the second round?
Saku gave up after being in that long ass rally with Royce.
Danm i really need to rewatch those old DVDs....

 

[Kforcer]

I am not surprised the Yakuza gangsters had a share in PRIDE FC and years before their promotion went under their own nation had given up on MMA and fighting sports. A reasonable person would expect PRIDE FC to eventually tank because the Japanese fans did not care.

The thing is, Yakuza have or at least, had a hand in every major Japanese entertainment outfit. Its just that Pride's connection was made public. As far as Pride though, Japanese MMA was still huge when Pride was around. Hero's did better numbers, but it was still huge.

 

[Kforcer]

Didn’t end in the second round?
Saku gave up after being in that long ass rally with Royce.
Danm i really need to rewatch those old DVDs....

I wouldn't say he gave up. He just reached his physical limit. At the end of the round, he doesn't seem like he can get up. Honestly, without Royce's special rules, I think he would have submitted Igor based on how he did in his drained state.