Its official! Sambo is now an Olympic sport!

[Human Bass]

It sounds great and all that sambo made it, but realistically how popular will it be?
Seems like Russia would be the only legitimate strong powerhouse in this sport
Sambo in the US is hardly practiced much and the "Olympic team" could be filled with a bunch of wrestlers/judoka who cross train in BJJ or BJJers who train judo and wrestling, or MMA guys
I know there is a number requirement of the countries that practice and govern the sport but in reality, I can't see the level and skill of the athletes being very high

I can imagine some grappling/bjj guys trying it to have fun at the Olympics

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

It sounds great and all that sambo made it, but realistically how popular will it be?
Seems like Russia would be the only legitimate strong powerhouse in this sport
Sambo in the US is hardly practiced much and the "Olympic team" could be filled with a bunch of wrestlers/judoka who cross train in BJJ or BJJers who train judo and wrestling, or MMA guys
I know there is a number requirement of the countries that practice and govern the sport but in reality, I can't see the level and skill of the athletes being very high

USSR was a 15 states formation plus the Eastern Bloc, roughly another 10 countries.

That makes 25 countries, where Sambo was simultaneously developed and talent pool runs deep.

Add to this list Japan (the woman who won the HW Female Judo Olympics is the 2014 Sambo World Champ), Korea, Venezuela, Mexico, Cuba, France, Italy, and you will get the picture of how spread the sport actually is.

Then, currently there is a lot of movement of FIAS in Africa, where more than 10 countries are now sending full teams to the Worlds.

Thats a lot of competitors already.

US could get a chance to present the top athletes of the country, but dont think they will have a run through the competition at Worlds or Olympics.

 

[Gabicho]

USSR was a 15 states formation plus the Eastern Bloc, roughly another 10 countries.

That makes 25 countries, where Sambo was simultaneously developed and talent pool runs deep.

Add to this list Japan (the woman who won the HW Female Judo Olympics is the 2014 Sambo World Champ), Korea, Venezuela, Mexico, Cuba, France, Italy, and you will get the picture of how spread the sport actually is.

Then, currently there is a lot of movement of FIAS in Africa, where more than 10 countries are now sending full teams to the Worlds.

Thats a lot of competitors already.

US could get a chance to present the top athletes of the country, but dont think they will have a run through the competition at Worlds or Olympics.

Countries like Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Venezuela and others have treated SAMBO (almost) like an Olympic sport for decades, so it's natural that this coupled with their tradition in SAMBO itself and other combat sports would tilt the balance severely in their favor.
But the level has evened out, and now with other national Olympic committees accepting SAMBO, mid and long term the trend should keep going in that direction.
There was an fighter from Cameroon who got gold at last year's WC, for example. Mexico has medalled at international cups, when 15 years ago they would never make it out of the first round.
It's not unfeasible that the best guys from the "developing" Sambo countries can beat an eastern bloc athlete on any given day.
The problem at worlds and Olympics is that even if you beat Russia in the first round, then you will get a draw with Bulgaria, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Mongolia... So it's a hell of a ride to a medal, and those countries have a huge and tough talent pool which will still give them a competitive advantage for decades.
But at the Olympics, considering how qualification will be organized, medalling should be easier than at Worlds, because continents will get a spread of competitors, instead of 90% of them being eastern bloc masters of sports.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Countries like Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Venezuela and others have treated SAMBO (almost) like an Olympic sport for decades, so it's natural that this coupled with their tradition in SAMBO itself and other combat sports would tilt the balance severely in their favor.
But the level has evened out, and now with other national Olympic committees accepting SAMBO, mid and long term the trend should keep going in that direction.
There was an fighter from Cameroon who got gold at last year's WC, for example. Mexico has medalled at international cups, when 15 years ago they would never make it out of the first round.
It's not unfeasible that the best guys from the "developing" Sambo countries can beat an eastern bloc athlete on any given day.
The problem at worlds and Olympics is that even if you beat Russia in the first round, then you will get a draw with Bulgaria, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Mongolia... So it's a hell of a ride to a medal, and those countries have a huge and tough talent pool which will still give them a competitive advantage for decades.
But at the Olympics, considering how qualification will be organized, medalling should be easier than at Worlds, because continents will get a spread of competitors, instead of 90% of them being eastern bloc masters of sports.

I believe current trend of brackets will continue:
The Sambo Euros been what the PanAms are for Jiujitsu, with the top talent and probable medalists at Worlds.

It will get tougher and tougher, since the rest of the EU countries will now start sending higher quality athletes, but Eastern Europe and ex USSR keeping the head start with experience and structure for a few Olympic circles.

Then eventually, the PanAms level will catch up and we will see consistent diversity in the medalists at top level.

Asian Championships are already quite tough, considering the Stans, Japan, Korea and Mongolia are participating.
With an influx of wrestling strong countries (Iran, Turkey), things will get even better.

Exciting times ahead

 

[rmongler]

It is already distinct.
If you are regular viewer of judo and wrestling events, you won't mistake sambo for either of those.
Gameplay is quite different

And again, FIAS has been working on the viewership and TV ratings statistics for a few DECADES now.
Current rule set is the best and easy to follow by non-spectators.

All i'll say is, Judo folks thought the same thing about Judo too 40 or 50 years ago... and well, look at what Judo is now.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

All i'll say is, Judo folks thought the same thing about Judo too 40 or 50 years ago... and well, look at what Judo is now.

Here is some food for thought:

Who was in charge of IJF, when leg grabs were banned?

It ended up with a style, significantly different from Sambo, and in such a way, easier for both sports to be TVed in the Olympics and not been intermixed.

Judo is only gaining popularity worldwide, despite what you hear on English speaking forums (it has never been big in English speaking countries anyway).

 

[rmongler]

Here is some food for thought:

Who was in charge of IJF, when leg grabs were banned?

It ended up with a style, significantly different from Sambo, and in such a way, easier for both sports to be TVed in the Olympics and not been intermixed.

Judo is only gaining popularity worldwide, despite what you hear on English speaking forums (it has never been big in English speaking countries anyway).

I suppose it's easier to be cavalier about some folk's toys being adulterated for the convenience of someone else's toy, when you are the someone else; but it still begs a couple questions, the obvious one being everyone thinks they'll be the ones who stay in power - right up until they're not (we can once again look at the Judo folks of yesteryear). Maybe right now you have the power to be the guy(s) who can make everyone else change to accommodate, and not the other way around - but how are you going to ensure you retain that power, enforce the low status of every other grappling sport in the olympics vis-a-vis sambo, destroy any and all other potential rivals who might take your same place, who might do the same to sambo just as what is done to every single other sport that has ever passed into Olympic remit?

(The other question of course being doesn't it strike one how spitefully impoverished this whole frame of approach to the matter is to begin with.)

 

[Submission]

How can I stay more informed regarding Sambo? Who are the main athletes? Most famous fights or some good ones to watch?
In my country (Portugal) there is no Sambo at all (I think), and from what I saw is pretty much non-existent in Western Europe besides France and Spain.

Ivaylo Ivanov, you mentioned a few posts ago that the current rule-set is the best. How is it?

 

[Gabicho]

How can I stay more informed regarding Sambo? Who are the main athletes? Most famous fights or some good ones to watch?
In my country (Portugal) there is no Sambo at all (I think), and from what I saw is pretty much non-existent in Western Europe besides France and Spain.

Ivaylo Ivanov, you mentioned a few posts ago that the current rule-set is the best. How is it?

The international Sambo Federation (FIAS) publishes information pretty much daily regarding the sport.
You can subscribe to the news feed or just follow their website/social networks.

In Western Europe, Spain, France, Netherlands, Italy and the UK have good teams.
Lagging behind, Germany, Belgium. Like you said about Portugal, I don't remember any Portuguese participants, which is odd, since they have very good judo.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I suppose it's easier to be cavalier about some folk's toys being adulterated for the convenience of someone else's toy, when you are the someone else; but it still begs a couple questions, the obvious one being everyone thinks they'll be the ones who stay in power - right up until they're not (we can once again look at the Judo folks of yesteryear). Maybe right now you have the power to be the guy(s) who can make everyone else change to accommodate, and not the other way around - but how are you going to ensure you retain that power, enforce the low status of every other grappling sport in the olympics vis-a-vis sambo, destroy any and all other potential rivals who might take your same place, who might do the same to sambo just as what is done to every single other sport that has ever passed into Olympic remit?

(The other question of course being doesn't it strike one how spitefully impoverished this whole frame of approach to the matter is to begin with.)

I dont know why you take it in a negative way, but such directions are not taken without mutual agreement.

Judo has been growing even more with current model and that is what IJF wants it to look like.

There is no losing side

 

[rmongler]

I dont know why you take it in a negative way, but such directions are not taken without mutual agreement.

Judo has been growing even more with current model and that is what IJF wants it to look like.

There is no losing side

I mean, i look at it negatively because it has been negative.

If you have a serious argument that Judo, as a martial art specifically, not as a product or social club in general, has been improved by the rules-lawyering it has gone under in latter days, i'd like to hear about it.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I mean, i look at it negatively because it has been negative.

If you have a serious argument that Judo, as a martial art specifically, not as a product or social club in general, has been improved by the rules-lawyering it has gone under in latter days, i'd like to hear about it.

I have an argument about the essence of martial arts and the difference with combat sports.

At the end of the day, the whole idea of Judo was to be widespread combat sport, for the masses.

Which is also the idea of Sambo.

Which is also the idea of Wrestling.

And its the current state of Jiujitsu as well.

 

[Submission]

The international Sambo Federation (FIAS) publishes information pretty much daily regarding the sport.
You can subscribe to the news feed or just follow their website/social networks.

In Western Europe, Spain, France, Netherlands, Italy and the UK have good teams.
Lagging behind, Germany, Belgium. Like you said about Portugal, I don't remember any Portuguese participants, which is odd, since they have very good judo.

Yes, the judo here is very good but there is no sambo at all.

What about athletes, who are the best ones? The only one I follow is Ivan Vasylchuk.

 

[EGDM]

The thought of someone attempting to make Sambo distinct from both Judo and freestyle makes me chuckle. Good luck with that.

Mandatory double guard pull into 50/50 at the start of the match, and the entire sport is a race to the footlock.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

Countries like Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Venezuela and others have treated SAMBO (almost) like an Olympic sport for decades, so it's natural that this coupled with their tradition in SAMBO itself and other combat sports would tilt the balance severely in their favor.
But the level has evened out, and now with other national Olympic committees accepting SAMBO, mid and long term the trend should keep going in that direction.
There was an fighter from Cameroon who got gold at last year's WC, for example. Mexico has medalled at international cups, when 15 years ago they would never make it out of the first round.
It's not unfeasible that the best guys from the "developing" Sambo countries can beat an eastern bloc athlete on any given day.
The problem at worlds and Olympics is that even if you beat Russia in the first round, then you will get a draw with Bulgaria, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Mongolia... So it's a hell of a ride to a medal, and those countries have a huge and tough talent pool which will still give them a competitive advantage for decades.
But at the Olympics, considering how qualification will be organized, medalling should be easier than at Worlds, because continents will get a spread of competitors, instead of 90% of them being eastern bloc masters of sports.

I believe current trend of brackets will continue:
The Sambo Euros been what the PanAms are for Jiujitsu, with the top talent and probable medalists at Worlds.

It will get tougher and tougher, since the rest of the EU countries will now start sending higher quality athletes, but Eastern Europe and ex USSR keeping the head start with experience and structure for a few Olympic circles.

Then eventually, the PanAms level will catch up and we will see consistent diversity in the medalists at top level.

Asian Championships are already quite tough, considering the Stans, Japan, Korea and Mongolia are participating.
With an influx of wrestling strong countries (Iran, Turkey), things will get even better.

Exciting times ahead

I'm very excited that Sambo will be in the Olympics, but I'm not super enthusiastic about it's diversity
From the two posters I quoted above, it kind of already shows it's lack of diversity. It sounds like a lot of the powerhouses (outside of Russia and Eastern Bloc countries) are coming from combat sports background other than Sambo. Hearing the fact that other strong countries have their wrestlers and judoka coming in really doesn't strike me to be super excited about the sport in a whole, when many of the athletes are coming from other backgrounds.
IMO, not very exciting to watch a bunch of judokas + wrestlers competing in a ruleset where submissions are allowed. As opposesd to Sambo specialists who are great at defending the takedowns to enterin intricate leg lock entries to win the match, that is something that would distinguish it heavily from judo/wrestling with a jacket on

 

[Gabicho]

Yes, the judo here is very good but there is no sambo at all.

What about athletes, who are the best ones? The only one I follow is Ivan Vasylchuk.

Vasylchuk, Popov, Kosev, Tunurkuleg, Kurzhev, Moroz, Nemkov, etc, etc.

Just search on YouTube for "Sambo finals" and you'll see the final matches of worlds, Euro, Panams, etc, where most of the top guys fight for medals.

 

[Gabicho]

I'm very excited that Sambo will be in the Olympics, but I'm not super enthusiastic about it's diversity
From the two posters I quoted above, it kind of already shows it's lack of diversity. It sounds like a lot of the powerhouses (outside of Russia and Eastern Bloc countries) are coming from combat sports background other than Sambo. Hearing the fact that other strong countries have their wrestlers and judoka coming in really doesn't strike me to be super excited about the sport in a whole, when many of the athletes are coming from other backgrounds.
IMO, not very exciting to watch a bunch of judokas + wrestlers competing in a ruleset where submissions are allowed. As opposesd to Sambo specialists who are great at defending the takedowns to enterin intricate leg lock entries to win the match, that is something that would distinguish it heavily from judo/wrestling with a jacket on

Any and all sports/martial arts are shaped by and around their doctrines and principles/ruleset.
SAMBO, since it's origin, is an eclectic sport/martial art.
There's no such thing as "pure" SAMBO, and no one at the top level will care what is your background if it gives results within the ruleset.
This conflicts with the "lineage" and "purity" prejudice that is a big part of other sports/arts; it is generally not present in SAMBO (you will only find it with people who FIRST did another martial art, migrated to SAMBO, and then they feel owners of defenders of the purity of the art) . SAMBO stands for "self defense without weapons" and was always thought of developing the most efficient and effective martial art.
I can't think of any SAMBO World Championship, or medallist, who hasn't done judo, wrestling, BJJ, MMA, boxing, sumo or whatever else.
That said, SAMBO specialists will always be the ones who have the most success at high level competition. I've seen mediocre sambists smash Champions of other sports within the Sambo ruleset, just like SAMBO Champions could lose in BJJ or Judo. Some of the skills and techniques do help a lot, but others can also slow the progress and affect negatively when tried in Sambo.

 

[RJ Green]

Sambo ruleset would be far more flexible for competitors and enjoyable to watch than the dumpster fire Judo subjected us to last week.

 

[rmongler]

I have an argument about the essence of martial arts and the difference with combat sports.

At the end of the day, the whole idea of Judo was to be widespread combat sport, for the masses.

Which is also the idea of Sambo.

Which is also the idea of Wrestling.

And its the current state of Jiujitsu as well.

Is this to say you grant the point i was making, then? The charge i leveled was that the Judo of 2021, as a consequence of it's transformations, is a lower quality product wrt to a function of either preparing a man for success in mutual combat verses another man in particular, or as a test of virtue in general, in comparison to the Judo of say 1999 (or 1959). You would agree with that much?

The point you mention in this post here is not an unfamiliar argument; that there is a large, significant, and essential trade-off between marketability and martial art; and that for the sake of marketability you need to trade off on the martial art.

But where do you ever see it?

It looks like what one actually sees so often in reality is, a brand that ostensibly delivers a martial experience, that adumbrates the martial part, then finds itself withering away as men leave for greener pastures, and some other brand takes it's place. Looks like when making a deal with the devil part of the deal is losing the generative spirit that gave life to the brand in the first place.

Folks running the brand of huezillian ground judo got a big market share for themselves because the market share for 'real shit' was largely abandoned by folks running EAM brands (or never occupied in the first place). Looks like BJJ going the same way as those EAM brands would just find itself as yet another historical footnote in that cycle. On the other hand, brands like Boxing, which don't make bones in the slightest about the combat part of the combat sport being primal, and have operated a same format predicated on that assumption for over a hundred years... have also enjoyed most dominant market share over those years. A man operating under a naive assumption of a simple or unnuanced tradeoff between 'marketability' and 'real shit' would be faced with the apparent paradox where more 'marketability' ultimately leads to loss of market share.

Why would anyone want to do combat sports? This is not an idle question. What sort of things are they or could they be getting out of a combat sport, that they could not get out of literally anything else?

Perhaps some people don't like exerting themselves, and so maybe we can make it so sambo does not have to take so much movement. Also, things like hitting and twisting and choking each other can also be offputting to some people who could be potential customers as well, maybe we can minimize those parts too. And then there's the fact that competition can make some people look better than others. If we can make it so there are strategies differently abled folk can use in sambo to avoid getting scored on, to avoid getting finished by any legal method, that could also theoretically increase the range of potential clients. Kinda like tic-tac-toe, where being a little bit smarter than the other guy, and a *whole lot* smarter than the other guy, still only make more or less the same difference in outcome in the end. And between competitors past a certain level, both would usually end up stalemating each other - but this is also fine, since you can then use tie-breakers that are basically like coinflips; that way, even if one guy loses, he can still feel like he didn't *really* lose, and noones personal status has to be threatened. And if every tom dick and harry is able to complete on a more or less even level as even a top world class guy, this would again theoretically promise to open up to a larger pool of potential customers, right?

Or maybe otherwise was what people were looking for in the first place.

Consider the observation that one's object may not be a universal object to begin with. That for a given something, simply not everyone is going to do that something - unless it stops being that something, in essence. This is the case for most things that people do in a society, rather. Those who don't appreciate this fact often fall into a false lemma, where, when they see an object they identify with 'failing' to be universal, they assume something must be wrong; and so, make changes for 'broader appeal', particularly to the format itself, in hopes of greater market share - are frustrated by the fact that such changes seem to not actually be increasing the market share they 'should' have - continue making more successively radical changes - then at the end of the day find they killed the thing instead. Because it was a fools errand from the start, and the characteristics they assumed had to be wrong weren't actually wrong in the first place; the market share they had, was in fact a natural share for that market.

You know that not very many people become full time competitors in a hobby, of any kind; but very many people are competitive. They may participate only casually, once or twice a week perhaps, but they still want the thing that they are participating in to be substantially virtuous, in of itself.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Is this to say you grant the point i was making, then? The charge i am leveling is that the Judo of 2021, as a consequence of it's transformations, is a lower quality product wrt to a function of either preparing a man for success in mutual combat verses another man in particular, or as a test of virtue in general, in comparison to the Judo of say 1999 (or 1959). You would agree with that much?

The point you mention is not an unfamiliar argument; that there is a large, significant, and essential trade-off between marketability and martial art; and that for the sake of marketability you need to trade off on the martial art.

But where do you ever see it?

It looks like what one actually sees so often in reality is, a brand that ostensibly delivers a martial experience, that adumbrates the martial part, then finds itself withering away as men leave for greener pastures, and some other brand takes it's place. Looks like when making a deal with the devil part of the deal is losing the generative spirit that gave life to the brand in the first place.

Folks running the brand of huezillian ground judo got a big market share for themselves because the market share for 'real shit' was largely abandoned by folks running EAM brands (or never occupied in the first place). Looks like BJJ going the same way as those EAM brands would just find itself as yet another historical footnote in that cycle. On the other hand, brands like Boxing, which don't make bones in the slightest about the combat part of the combat sport being primal, and have operated a same format predicated on that assumption for over a hundred years... have also enjoyed most dominant market share over those years. A man operating under a naive assumption of a simple or unnuanced tradeoff between 'marketability' and 'real shit' would be faced with the apparent paradox where more 'marketability' ultimately leads to loss of market share.

Why would anyone want to do combat sports? This is not an idle question. What sort of things are they or could they be getting out of a combat sport, that they could not get out of literally anything else?

Perhaps some people don't like exerting themselves, and so maybe we can make it so sambo does not have to take so much movement. Also, things like hitting and twisting and choking each other can also be offputting to some people who could be potential customers as well, maybe we can minimize those parts too. And then there's the fact that competition can make some people look better than others. If we can make it so there are strategies differently abled folk can use in sambo to avoid getting scored on, to avoid getting finished by any legal method, that could also theoretically increase the range of potential clients. Kinda like tic-tac-toe, where being a little bit smarter than the other guy, and a *whole lot* smarter than the other guy, still only make more or less the same difference in outcome in the end. And between competitors past a certain level, both would usually end up stalemating each other - but this is also fine, since you can then use tie-breakers that are basically like coinflips; that way, even if one guy loses, he can still feel like he didn't *really* lose, and noones personal status has to be threatened. And if every tom dick and harry is able to complete on a more or less even level as even a top world class guy, this would again theoretically promise to open up to a larger pool of potential customers, right?

Or maybe otherwise was what people were looking for in the first place.

Consider the observation that one's object may not be a universal object to begin with. That for a given something, simply not everyone is going to do that something - unless it stops being that something, in essence. This is the case for most things that people do in a society, rather. Those who don't appreciate this fact often fall into a false lemma, where, when they see an object they identify with 'failing' to be universal, they assume something must be wrong; and so, make changes for 'broader appeal', particularly to the format itself, in hopes of greater market share - are frustrated by the fact that such changes seem to not actually be increasing the market share they 'should' have - continue making more successively radical changes - then at the end of the day find they killed the thing instead. Because it was a fools errand from the start, and the characteristics they assumed had to be wrong weren't actually wrong in the first place; the market share they had, was in fact a natural share for that market.

You know that not very many people become full time competitors in a hobby, of any kind; but very many people are competitive. They may participate only casually, once or twice a week perhaps, but they still want the thing that they are participating in to be substantially virtuous, in of itself.

This is your point of view, correct?