Social Political correctness vs Islamophobia - is there compatibility of Islamic and Western values?

[TheMaster]

I think that's a very simple way of looking at things. Values, beliefs, morality, relationships etc etc - no degree of commonality here?

Really?

Even religions share many commonalities with one another.

It seems like you want to believe that there is no commonality between people other than walking, eating, sleeping and talking.

Do you have any reading of history? A serious question?

Reason I ask is because commonality between different groups is quite evident when you read through history - you can evidently see how we influence one another and how we behave in similar waves (not rocket science since we're all humans).

From Greek philosophy influencing earlier Islamic philosophers and they in turn influencing renaissance philosophers is one example of many.

Of course I could be wrong and you could be a flying unicorn that shits gold which would mean that you are indeed different to everybody....

You do make some valid points.
But bottom line is, Islam is not a religion of peace overall. It does not seek or want world peace.

Would you agree with the main points summed by this article, written by a Muslim who confesses to being scared of Islamic core teachings?

https://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-h...ll-people-or-is-that-just-one-interpretation/

There are simply too many passages that can and have been interpreted to justify killing non-muslims.

Fact:
1/. Many Muslims regard non-muslim lives as of less worth than theirs, and believe it can be justified to kill non-muslims in many circumstances
2/. Only Muslims are regarded as truly 'innocent' in Islam

This is at odds with many other religions and secular belief

The idea that is 'peaceful' in context of modern values is actually ridiculous when you look into it.
These arguments cannot be refuted.

 

[fedoriswar37]

Talk about the motherhood of bad ideologies lol never really thought of these 2 together

 

[Azam]

You do make some valid points.
But bottom line is, Islam is not a religion of peace overall. It does not seek or want world peace.

I don't want to misconstrue this so I will do my best trying to explain clearly.

Islam is a religion of peace in that it seeks to avoid conflict and promote peaceful resolutions where possible - much like many other religions.

It is also allows violence - strictly in terms of self defense - much like many other religions.

It is not unique in this sense and shares this trait with many other mainstream faiths (contrary to popular belief).

Any realistic religion should address responses to violence otherwise it's not realistic. I have the same criticism of the non-violence approach too.

Would you agree with the main points summed by this article, written by a Muslim who confesses to being scared of Islamic core teachings?

https://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-h...ll-people-or-is-that-just-one-interpretation/

The problem with this is that there is a lot of historical context behind these verses that is simply missing from this article.

The author acknowledges that he doesn't quite understand all the context - which is fair play to him for pointing that out clearly.

I agree with some bits and disagree with many others.

For example: part 6 is just plain wrong - absurdly so. His definition of what innocent is in regards to violence is simply and categorically rubbish.

He/She makes extremely generalized statements about the use of violence and it's contexts & then lumps this all in with being innocent?

Most of the verses addressing violence are due to broken treaties, self defense, wars etc etc - has nothing to do with innocence but violence itself.

In fact when I read this it was genuinely baffling. Since when are people killed anywhere in the Qur'an "for eating haram food" or "not praying."

The insinuations he/she were making were for lack of a better word genuinely retarded and most muslims would laugh at some of the stuff written here.

Also the Qur'an was revealed during the lifetime of prophet Muhammad (saw) and many of these verses relate to specific events that happened - it is very different in this sense from many other scriptures.

There are simply too many passages that can and have been interpreted to justify killing non-muslims.

The problem here is that many of these misinterpretations come from a literal reading of the Qur'an forsaking any historical context behind the verses.

Even then there are no verses that advocate killing over peace - even the most used "sword verses" (usually quoted without context) literally follow with peace is better.

The one thing extremists and anti-Islam critics like Sam Harris & co - all have in common is that they interpret things literally.

This is a scripture written in classical Arabic - full of poetry, metaphors, stories, local nuances and in response to events around the time. The audience are 7th century Arabs and it is written in their vernacular.

Reading a scripture like this in a literal sense is fraught with problems and why most Muslims do not fall into this trap.

Fact:
1/. Many Muslims regard non-muslim lives as of less worth than theirs, and believe it can be justified to kill non-muslims in many circumstances
2/. Only Muslims are regarded as truly 'innocent' in Islam

This is at odds with many other religions and secular belief.

These are your opinions not facts. Stating them as facts when they clearly aren't is engaging in falsity. I think you are better than that.

1. Incorrect.
2. Incorrect.

It's actually surprising to see you state this as fact because it might be the dumbest Islam related "facts" I've ever come across - and like the author no Quranic evidence is being used to support these "facts" because it's soo stupid there is nothing that can be used to support it - I'm literally flabbergasted.

It's as though you are basing your views off people who have provided very little evidence to substantiate their claims and then dressed it as facts.

I mean please use your logic. Does it make sense for any faith to take that attitude with potential converts? How can you convert people to Islam if you think they have the value of cattle?

Also if Muslims were regarded as only innocent - that would mean they are incapable of sinning. Does this mean that the rules do not apply to them since they are truly "innocent" - because this is what your logic is implying. Does this make any sense to you?

I mean it's like you abandoned your reason and logic.

The idea that is 'peaceful' in context of modern values is actually ridiculous when you look into it.
These arguments cannot be refuted.

Both these speakers should probably stick to their own fields of expertise. They're entitled to their opinions - but that doesn't mean they are rooted in a sound understanding of Islamic theology.

When I want to know about something I find people educated in their fields - i.e. scholars or professors - if I want to learn about something.

I don't go to a physicist when I want to learn something about history nor do I go to a Historian if I want to learn more about black holes.

But for some reason basic common sense doesn't apply when it comes to critique of theology - everyone is an expert.

 

[tastaylvr]

How many countries has Islam invaded and bombed into oblivion thou?

The pot calling the kettle...

 

[TheMaster]

These are your opinions not facts. Stating them as facts when they clearly aren't is engaging in falsity. I think you are better than that.

1. Incorrect.
2. Incorrect.

It's actually surprising to see you state this as fact because it might be the dumbest Islam related "facts" I've ever come across - and like the author no Quranic evidence is being used to support these "facts" because it's soo stupid there is nothing that can be used to support it - I'm literally flabbergasted.

It's as though you are basing your views off people who have provided very little evidence to substantiate their claims and then dressed it as facts.

I mean please use your logic. Does it make sense for any faith to take that attitude with potential converts? How can you convert people to Islam if you think they have the value of cattle?

Also if Muslims were regarded as only innocent - that would mean they are incapable of sinning. Does this mean that the rules do not apply to them since they are truly "innocent" - because this is what your logic is implying. Does this make any sense to you?

I mean it's like you abandoned your reason and logic.

1. Those who reject Islam and adhere to other religions (especially polytheists or atheists but also Christians and Jews) are deemed to have less value than Muslim lives. You even state "why would potential converts be treated as cattle". And that's the thing, it's always in terms of only conversion that the muslims see non-muslims worth.

Let's say the person will never convert and rejects Islam. Are you saying that they have equal rights and regard as Muslims under sharia? Are they given equal legal status in Muslim countries and law?

The fact that apostasy laws exist in many Muslim countries proves this. You are engaging in some kind of mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging the truth of these statement which you know are accurate.

2. Yes , 'unbelievers' or 'infidels' are not innocent in Islam. Again, are you actually trying to deny this?

Let's also stop avoiding.
There is always the "context and interpretation" argument. Trouble is we have to go by how the majority of Islamic societies actually interrupt the verses, and it is aligned with the above in most Islamic majority countries and among many muslim communities.

 

[1pedestrian]

Western liberalism and Islamic culture are incompatible but it doesn't matter because muslims have a higher fertility rate and western countries have an open border policy, so muslims will replace the libs in a few generations.

 

[Islam Imamate]

These are your opinions not facts. Stating them as facts when they clearly aren't is engaging in falsity. I think you are better than that.

1. Incorrect.
2. Incorrect.

It's actually surprising to see you state this as fact because it might be the dumbest Islam related "facts" I've ever come across - and like the author no Quranic evidence is being used to support these "facts" because it's soo stupid there is nothing that can be used to support it - I'm literally flabbergasted.

It's as though you are basing your views off people who have provided very little evidence to substantiate their claims and then dressed it as facts.

I mean please use your logic. Does it make sense for any faith to take that attitude with potential converts? How can you convert people to Islam if you think they have the value of cattle?

Also if Muslims were regarded as only innocent - that would mean they are incapable of sinning. Does this mean that the rules do not apply to them since they are truly "innocent" - because this is what your logic is implying. Does this make any sense to you?

I mean it's like you abandoned your reason and logic.

He's really not, in some other thread he was gloating about how non-Muslims can vaporize the entire Ummah in a nuclear Holocaust and how the Muslims deserve to be humiliated by the West over the last 200 years. He also doesn't even believe he's engaging with you in an honest discussion, this is what he thinks of Muslims.

- You have literally no choice in the belief you hold and were born to so it's not really a debate unlike with a free person, a true man always has choice to decide his own will and beliefs.

He doesn't even think of us as free people or true men, that's how he sees us Muslims. So yeah he's among the worst Islamophobes here, no wonder he's just regurgitating other ones like Anne Marie Waters.

 

[86'd]

https://www.businessinsider.com/isi...ran-to-justify-anti-christian-violence-2014-7

Quran (9:29): “Fight against Christians and Jews until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”

Quran (5:51): “Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.”

Quran (2:65-66): “Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.”

Quran (5:51): “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”

Quran (9:30): "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Anyone who takes time to actually read the Quran before stipulating what Islam is or is not will find that similar verses abound; militant groups readily cite these verses to legitimize their actions. In other words, the anti-Christian and anti-Jewish verses of the Quran have direct implications on how jihadists think and behave. Arguing, therefore, that Islam has little to do with atrocities committed in its name is simply unconvincing.

The problem, in fact, goes beyond sporadic outbursts of anti-Christian violence in the Arab world, to everyday discrimination. In constitutions of Arab countries, the first article typically stipulates that Islam is the religion of the state. This remains true even in a country like Egypt, where millions of Christian Egyptians live.

Because Arab Christians are politically irrelevant, Western powers ignore their plight. But the (much ignored) fact remains that Arab Christians live as second-tier citizens in their own countries.

Think of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood declaring that Christians (and women) cannot become president of Egypt. Think, in fact, of Mahdi Akef, a senior figure of the Muslim Brotherhood, maintaining that a non-Egyptian Muslim can become president of Egypt, but not an Egyptian Christian. Or think of allowing Muslim men to marry Christian women, but not the other way around.


I challenge people making comparisons of the Muslim religion to Christianity find a scripture taught by Jesus that calls for such un-acceptance and violence to those who are different.

 

[86'd]

Here’s some scriptures from the New Testament, let’s compare it to what the Koran teaches….


43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus I declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”


But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the otheralso. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

 

[TheMaster]

He's really not, in some other thread he was gloating about how non-Muslims can vaporize the entire Ummah in a nuclear Holocaust and how the Muslims deserve to be humiliated by the West over the last 200 years. He also doesn't even believe he's engaging with you in an honest discussion, this is what he thinks of Muslims.

Wow, so now you are actually lying about me,to add to your gross list of character flaws. No, I didn't say any of those things you posted above.

I asked the rhetroical question of if 'allah' was against the 'infidels', why did he let the non-muslims have orders of magnitude more military power in the modern era with nuclear weapons which could obliterate any non nuclear country which Muslim nation's are (excepting Pakistan)? This was my point to challenge your idiotic closet aspirations about creating a Muslim global khalifate which you have and think is destiny but don't want to openly admit.

Nowhere did I say that I think Muslims 'deserve to be humiliated'. That's a flat out lie from you.

As usual, with your double standard and slimy false logic you throw out 'islamophobe' for stating some observations about Islam.
Even though I am secular and don't think Islam should be outlawed in secular states like the west, although if I were in many Islamic countries they wouldn't allow other religions to openly practice.
Yet for you, they are still 'better than me' and not 'unbelieverphobes'. And you wouldn't dare question them on it would you. This is the type of two faced bs that needs to be called out more.
Until you start calling Saudis and other hardline Muslims 'unbelieverphobes', you can stfu with throwing out 'islamaphobe'.

Islam is an ideaoloy that often produces a set of warped ideas that are quietly if not blatantly hostile to others unless they are seriously secularized and toned down as which happened in Christianity. This is the hope for Islam.

He doesn't even think of us as free people or true men, that's how he sees us Muslims. So yeah he's among the worst Islamophobes here, no wonder he's just regurgitating other ones like Anne Marie Waters.

I said a man has the right to choose his destiny and path including his religion. Islam forbids Muslims from doing this with apostasy law's with threats of violence so tries to take away this right of every man.

And again, are you trying to refute the two points I made earller as not true?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Wow, so now you are actually lying about me,to add to your gross list of character flaws. No, I didn't say any of those things you posted above.

I asked the rhetroical question of if 'allah' was against the 'infidels', why did he let the non-muslims have orders of magnitude more military power in the modern era with nuclear weapons which could obliterate any non nuclear country which Muslim nation's are (excepting Pakistan)? This was my point to challenge your idiotic closet aspirations about creating a Muslim global khalifate which you have and think is destiny but don't want to openly admit.

Nowhere did I say that I think Muslims 'deserve to be humiliated'. That's a flat out lie from you.

Weird that you'd lie about your posts when I can just quote them

The shoe is on the other foot now. The 'Infidel' won.
And that's because God/The Universe is aligned with the way it should be , not with hypocrites.

So for some reason even though Islam always spread through war and violence from Muhammad's time, 'Allah' gave the 'infidels' ability to literally obliterate all the Muslim lands and turn even Mecca to dust at the touch of a button now...

Interesting question right?
It seems God/The universe had other plans and is not aligned with the muhamadeens much at all.
Rather the Universe has empowered those who are not misguided by false revelation and perverse doctine of the koran by which they commit great evils, to govern.

Also nice that you included an accusation of taqiyya

This was my point to challenge your idiotic closet aspirations about creating a Muslim global khalifate which you have and think is destiny but don't want to openly admit.

that pretty much makes my point in regards to your bigotry against Muslims. Don't feel like going back and forth with you again, I just wanted to inform @Azam about what kind of person he is dealing with here.

 

[TheMaster]

Weird that you'd lie about your posts when I can just quote them


Also nice that you included an accusation of taqiyya

that pretty much makes my point in regards to your bigotry against Muslims. Don't feel like going back and forth with you again, I just wanted to inform @Azam about what kind of person he is dealing with here.

Yes, and the quotes do not support your lies about me, but make clear what I was saying. Very strange how you can't even read it without imposing some false narratives.

We can let Azam decide for himself about my or anyone elses views, I don't think he needs to be lectured by the likes of you of all people.

And yes, I don't expect you to answer your double standards and support of all those Muslims and Islamic laws that are bigotted and outright hostile to non-muslims. We know when you get called out and can't answer you tend to run away and throw out the 'islamaphobe' line as a convenient way to escape.

 

[TheMaster]

Many muslims around the world no doubt celebrating as Swedish cartoonist who made 'dog-muhammad' cartoons (mohammad portrayed with a dog's body) has died in a car accident.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...t-reportedly-dead-in-road-accident/ar-AAP6r1B

Shame that he had to live with police protection on his own country, due to making a parody that is fine according to the rule of law and free speech in the West.

Some may not have supported it and yes it was disrespectful, but it was still his right to make what ever fucking cartoons he wanted on Muhammad or anyone else.

 

[Bald1]

Many muslims around the world no doubt celebrating as Swedish cartoonist who made 'dog-muhammad' cartoons (mohammad portrayed with a dog's body) has died in a car accident.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...t-reportedly-dead-in-road-accident/ar-AAP6r1B

Shame that he had to live with police protection on his own country, due to making a parody that is fine according to the rule of law and free speech in the West.

Some may not have supported it, but it was his right to make what ever fucking cartoons he wanted on Muhammad or anyone else.

The fact that so many people who speak Ill of Islam need protection from practitioners of Islam falsifies the whole "religion of peace" narrative. The expansionist intolerant ideology that has a habit of killing other ideologies wherever it takes roots is peaceful? Have I got a bridge to sell you.