Law Should Critical Race Theory be Cancelled?

[Seano]

So yes, that sockpuppet's post was straight drivel. Confirmed by him linking some fake news propaganda piece about how Irish "slaves" were the most victimized people in the US. Shameless disinformation and a popular racist tactic that clearly still has legs.

You're overusing "sock puppet." Anti irish sentiment is recorded historical fact, so kindly don't pretend it didn't marginalize massive populations of people in this country for over a century. The irish were a persecuted people and I don't care if that offends you because black people exist. They were attacked for their religious beliefs, their ethnic background. They were barred from gainful employment. Mocked in advertising, literature and pretty much every other form of popular entertainment being associated with alcoholism and laziness to this very day.

Honestly, I don't find it offensive that you don't accept me using it as an excuse, in fact, thats sort of the point. I do find it offensive that you don't think I'm allowed to decide how oppressive it was. You will not say that the reminder of what happened to those people is a "racist tactic." Not all white folk were given a magical head start in society and I tire of people acting as if thats so. Our place in the world today, in the United States, at least is largely proportional to the effort we put in. Thats a harsh truth that a lot of people don't dare to admit today.

 

[luckyshot]

Nowhere did I claim Critical Theory was classical Marxism. I said Critical Theory was Marxist class struggle applied to race and gender. Your entire post is made of straw.

Fair enough. As long as we both agree that it is not Marxism, I will concede that it uses some Marxist thought structures.

I still think it's unhelpful to use that terminology because class is THE central concept in Marx's writings. So saying something "applies" Marx's thought to something besides class doesn't sit well with me. Maybe you could say CRT "misapplies" Marxist, and I'd be better with that.

Like, Marx was heavily influenced by Hegel's dialectic of history. But, whereas Hegel was an idealist, Marx was a pure materialist. So, I wouldn't run around calling Marx a "Hegelian." Materialism is a fairly significant departure from idealism, after all, even if they both employ the concept of the dialectic.

You're overusing "sock puppet." Anti irish sentiment is recorded historical fact, so kindly don't pretend it didn't marginalize massive populations of people in this country for over a century. The irish were a persecuted people and I don't care if that offends you because black people exist. They were attacked for their religious beliefs, their ethnic background. They were barred from gainful employment. Mocked in advertising, literature and pretty much every other form of popular entertainment being associated with alcoholism and laziness to this very day.

Honestly, I don't find it offensive that you don't accept me using it as an excuse, in fact, thats sort of the point. I do find it offensive that you don't think I'm allowed to decide how oppressive it was. You will not say that the reminder of what happened to those people is a "racist tactic." Not all white folk were given a magical head start in society and I tire of people acting as if thats so. Our place in the world today, in the United States, at least is largely proportional to the effort we put in. Thats a harsh truth that a lot of people don't dare to admit today.

Of course Irish people were mistreated, but they were never slaves in America! Seano, this isn't about "white privilege," it's about freaking reality.

I'm sure most actual slaves would have cut their fucking arm off for an indentured servant's contract that said that they and their children were not inheritable property and they would be freed after 4-7 years!

Saying this in no way minimizes prejudice against other groups. It just recognizes reality.

 

[TheLastSpartan]

Anti irish sentiment is recorded historical fact, so kindly don't pretend it didn't marginalize massive populations of people in this country for over a century. The irish were a persecuted people and I don't care if that offends you because black people exist. They were attacked for their religious beliefs, their ethnic background. They were barred from gainful employment. Mocked in advertising, literature and pretty much every other form of popular entertainment being associated with alcoholism and laziness to this very day.

Lazy strawman. You’re arguing a claim I never made and going in circles about it.

Honestly, I don't find it offensive that you don't accept me using it as an excuse, in fact, thats sort of the point. I do find it offensive that you don't think I'm allowed to decide how oppressive it was. You will not say that the reminder of what happened to those people is a "racist tactic."

You can think and decide whatever you want, doesn’t mean it isn’t intellectually dishonest. And yes, the Irish slave myth is racist propaganda utilized to discredit and ultimately silence AA grievances. It is the intentional misrepresentation of actual Irish persecution due to ulterior motives.

Not all white folk were given a magical head start in society and I tire of people acting as if thats so.

More straw.

Our place in the world today, in the United States, at least is largely proportional to the effort we put in. Thats a harsh truth that a lot of people don't dare to admit today.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

This may present a conundrum for right wingers, many of whom, who have set themselves up as champions of "absolute free speech" and anti- "cancel culture."

In September 2020, the Trump administration told federal agencies to “begin to identify all contracts or other agency spending related to any training on ‘critical race theory,’” which it described as “un-American propaganda.”

A month later, the conservative government in Britain declared some applications of critical race theory in education illegal. “We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt," said Tory Kemi Badenoch.

Republicans in West Virginia and Oklahoma have introduced bills banning schools and, in West Virginia’s case, state contractors from promoting “divisive concepts,” including claims that “the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist.” A New Hampshire Republican also proposed a “divisive concepts” ban, saying in a hearing, “This bill addresses something called critical race theory.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Edit: I will include this quote in the OP since it illustrates the issue at question, I think:

Now, it might be your opinion that CRT is racist (I may happen to agree, but it is still an opinion).

Just like it is my opinion that creationism is bull crap and "abstinence only" sex ed is ineffective.

The question is, do states have the right to prohibit democratically elected local school boards from making decisions about their own curriculums?

This is close to actually being a First Amendment violation, imo, since the censoring body is the government. It is far different from a private company like Disney deciding to fire Gina Carono.

I think it should be outlawed as foreign subversion outside of the USA. It's american trash and should stay there.

 

[MaxMMA]

Critical race theory? Isn't that what the Nazis were all about?

 

[Seano]

Lazy strawman. You’re arguing a claim I never made and going in circles about it.

I don't really get why you quoted me in the first place.

You can think and decide whatever you want, doesn’t mean it isn’t intellectually dishonest. And yes, the Irish slave myth is racist propaganda utilized to discredit and ultimately silence AA grievances. It is the intentional misrepresentation of actual Irish persecution due to ulterior motives.

Irish were indentured servants for the most part, not slaves. You can pretend their struggles weren't real and devastating but I really don't get why you feel the need to discredit it.

More straw.

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[TheLastSpartan]

I don't really get why you quoted me in the first place.

Because you thought bringing up Chinese immigrants was a reasonable refute to AAs being especially persecuted in the US via institutionalized chattel slavery.

Irish were indentured servants for the most part, not slaves.

Bingo.

You can pretend their struggles weren't real and devastating

You’re literally just making shit up at this point.

but I really don't get why you feel the need to discredit it.

You’re the one falsely equivocating the AA experience my friend. I’d say the same if we were discussing Native Americans and you attempted to equate their experience post-colonial contact to that of the Irish, Italians, or Chinese in America. There are degrees and levels to things, and you know this. Everything lies on a spectrum.

 

[Lead]

Maybe I just can’t think of enough examples but I always took cancel culture as ousting a person for having specific views that don’t even necessarily relate to their work. I don’t see it as a good comparison unless the schools are firing any teachers who believe in CRT and talk about it outside of school.

 

[Hoist The Flag]

It is not. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative but he's right. Maybe not about the "100000X more" part but he is right. Africans were not the only people to be treated inhumanely, they're just the only ones who still get to use it as an excuse for failure all these years later. All I'll agree with is that it took longer for blacks to get their rights and recognition.
The Irish, the Chinese and to some extent even Italians were all less than second class citizens who couldn't do as they pleased.

I say the Irish were "10000x more proportionately" effected as under King James the Irish population went from 1,500,000 down to 600,000K. There were definitely African tribes that were eradicated, but TS is just talking about just skin color. People with black skin did not have their population cut by 2/3rds like the Irish did in just a few decades, and that was just for a short period in history. If we go back thousands of year, long before Saint Brendan even found America (that is more taboo hidden history), this persecution and slavery of the Irish is just as rampant for millennia.

What uninformed people like TS do to minimize the Irish' incredible suffering is say "well, it was only indentured servitude" - which is just not true, as there were tons of Irish slaves, but indentured servitude was often also much worse than slavery. An African slave was a luxury item, they were on the whole taken care of, but the Irish were like beater rental cars and forced to do the worst jobs - Hollywood does not tell you that tho. TS does not seem to understand the Irish SLAVES were often cheaper than the black slaves and treated much worse. You will also see in that informative video that there was a practice of taking Irish women away from their husbands and families and forcing them to breed with the African slaves, so much that laws had to be passed to prevent this practice....just horrible, horrible stuff.

Here is a more extensive special on Irish slavery a d thoroughly debunks many of TS' assertions.

It is shocking how few people actually know about this stuff and just how bad it was. And you are spot on, it was not just the Irish, it was all kind of different people with all different colored skins - Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Natives, Swedish, Germans....everyone had their gripe and tragic histories of mistreatment. It was always about tribe and caste systems, where as this new phenomenon of skin color being a divide and conquer tool is super recent.

Welcome to 2021 I guess, where the real racists go by the label "anti-racist".

 

[Seano]

I say the Irish were "10000x more proportionately" effected as under King James the Irish population went from 1,500,000 down to 600,000K. There were definitely African tribes that were eradicated, but TS is just talking about just skin color. People with black skin did not have their population cut by 2/3rds like the Irish did in just a few decades, and that was just for a short period in history. If we go back thousands of year, long before Saint Brendan even found America (that is more taboo hidden history), this persecution and slavery of the Irish is just as rampant for millennia.

What uninformed people like TS do to minimize the Irish' incredible suffering is say "well, it was only indentured servitude" - which is just not true, as there were tons of Irish slaves, but indentured servitude was often also much worse than slavery. An African slave was a luxury item, they were on the whole taken care of, but the Irish were like beater rental cars and forced to do the worst jobs - Hollywood does not tell you that tho. TS does not seem to understand the Irish SLAVES were often cheaper than the black slaves and treated much worse. You will also see in that informative video that there was a practice of taking Irish women away from their husbands and families and forcing them to breed with the African slaves, so much that laws had to be passed to prevent this practice....just horrible, horrible stuff.

Here is a more extensive special on Irish slavery a d thoroughly debunks many of TS' assertions.

It is shocking how few people actually know about this stuff and just how bad it was. And you are spot on, it was not just the Irish, it was all kind of different people with all different colored skins - Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Natives, Swedish, Germans....everyone had their gripe and tragic histories of mistreatment. It was always about tribe and caste systems, where as his phenomenon of skin color being a divide and conquer tool is a super recent.

Welcome to 2021 I guess, where the real racists go by the label "anti-racist".

I've only recently begun to research the bigotry against Irish and other immigrant groups. My grandmothers grandmother was an irish immigrant. She had to change her last name when she came to the states and my grandfathers family almost disowned him for marrying an irish girl. That was what got me curious about how Irish folk were viewed. The parallels to what black people use to say was mistreatment are striking.
This is fine but a talking cartoon bird oppresses the black folk.

 

[Whippy McGee]

It should never be forced/taught on a captive audience. If some really depraved people want to take it at a college level, where it is not required, then let it rip.

Critical Race Theory is for cowards.

 

[Hoist The Flag]

I've only recently begun to research the bigotry against Irish and other immigrant groups. My grandmothers grandmother was an irish immigrant. She had to change her last name when she came to the states and my grandfathers family almost disowned him for marrying an irish girl. That was what got me curious about how Irish folk were viewed. The parallels to what black people use to say was mistreatment are striking.
This is fine but a talking cartoon bird oppresses the black folk.

It's a GD travesty how their mistreatment, suffering and oppression (they are still under occupation) is glossed over, hidden and minimized for the sole benefit of Critical Theorist's agendas. I too never knew just how bad things were, that Irish slavery even existed, and how deep the well went until I researched it. It is not taught in schools for a reason. People like the guy up top thinks he is dunking on everyone with his click words like "unique AA chattel slavery", his recycled real racist talking points, but could not be more off. I am convinced they do not teach nuanced history because people would be more inclined to not be racists, and they actually want people to be racist, have tribal mentality, a a divided and unaware people are easier to control and screw over.

 

[Seano]

It's a GD travesty how their mistreatment, suffering and oppression (they are still under occupation) is glossed over, hidden and minimized for the sole benefit of Critical Theorist's agendas. I too never knew just how bad things were, that Irish slavery even existed, and how deep the well went until I researched it. It is not taught in schools for a reason. People like the guy up top thinks he is dunking on everyone with his click words like "unique AA chattel slavery", his recycled real racist talking points, but could not be more off. I am convinced they do not teach nuanced history because people would be more inclined to not be racists, and they actually want people to be racist, have tribal mentality, a a divided and unaware people are easier to control and screw over.

They need an ultimate victim to pretend to champion. Its hard to distinguish irish from other white people folk on sight. Asians, from my perspective, don't seem interested in advancing themselves using their race.

 

[nac386]

It is not. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative but he's right. Maybe not about the "100000X more" part but he is right. Africans were not the only people to be treated inhumanely, they're just the only ones who still get to use it as an excuse for failure all these years later. All I'll agree with is that it took longer for blacks to get their rights and recognition.
The Irish, the Chinese and to some extent even Italians were all less than second class citizens who couldn't do as they pleased.

It’s not comparable. I am from an Italian family that migrated around the turn of the century, and while there were prejudices it was absolutely nowhere remotely resembling the treatment of blacks and the treatment of blacks continued well into the 1960s.

The whole “Irish slaves” thing is intentionally used as propaganda by people who want to downplay the African slave trade. It was absolutely not comparable to the African slave trade.


https://www.history.com/news/5-myths-about-slavery

There is unanimous agreement, based on overwhelming evidence, that the Irish were never subjected to perpetual, hereditary slavery in the colonies, based on notions of ‘race’.” The enduring myth of Irish slavery, which most often surfaces today in service of Irish nationalist and white supremacist causes, has roots in the 17th and 18th centuries, when Irish laborers were derogatorily called “white slaves.” The phrase would later be employed as propaganda by the slave-owning South about the industrialized North, along with (false) claims that life was far harder for immigrant factory workers than for enslaved people.

What’s the truth? Large numbers of indentured servants did indeed emigrate from Ireland to the British colonies of North America, where they provided a cheap labor force for planters and merchants eager to exploit it. Though most crossed the Atlantic willingly, some Irish men and women—including criminals as well as simply the poor and vulnerable—were sentenced to indentured servitude in Ireland, and forcibly shipped to the colonies to carry out their sentences. But indentured servitude, by definition, came nowhere close to chattel slavery. For one thing, it was temporary; all but the most serious felons were freed at the end of their contracts. The colonial system also offered more lenient punishment for disobedient servants than enslaved people, and allowed servants to petition for early release if their masters mistreated them. Most importantly, servitude wasn’t hereditary. Children of indentured servants were born free; slaves’ children were the property of their owners.

But we all already know that. Everybody knows they are making a completely ludicrous false equivalency when they bring these things up as some sort of foil to the African slave trade.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

But we all already know that. Everybody knows they are making a completely ludicrous false equivalency when they bring these things up as some sort of foil to the African slave trade.

The Irish were treated so bad, the most powerful political machine in the most important city in the country fully embraced them by the mid-1800s

With the Great Famine in Ireland, by 1850, more than 130,000 immigrants from Ireland lived in New York City.[41] Since the newly arrived immigrants were in deep poverty, Tammany Hall provided them with employment, shelter, and even citizenship sometimes.[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall#Immigrant_support

They were basically black people, imo

 

[hillelslovak87]

Just teach history.

Sadly, the Texas Schoolboard of Education is the de-facto pace setter for the textbooks that American children learn in their curriculum.

And those textbooks always neglect to talk about slavery in a responsible or comprehensive way, to say nothing of reconstruction, the nadir, the crowe era and onward.

When kids aren't even taught the truth about those eras, they're going to be ignorant like people today, who haven't shit to say but bullshit obfuscations when it comes to modern day things like the GOP-led dismantling of the voting rights act.

 

[djacobox372]

It shouldn't be canceled, but it also shouldn't be allowed to call itself a "theory." Theories require factual evidence.

Critical race hypothesis.

 

[Le Mercenaire]

There’s no agreed on academic definition of religion. In antiquity the word literally just meant a set of binding social or moral obligations to the community, essentially a type of ethics grounded in principles that were beyond challenge.

In that sense CRT is rather similar, in that it’s an example of the classic human ideology that attributes the majority of human suffering to a failure to comply with transcendent norms, which are defined by purging a singular evil. Whether that evil be polytheism, Judaism, white supremacy, pedophile networks, what have you. There’s no room for moderation, the norms are not themselves *contested attacks launched by real people against other people as part of inner-human factional battle,* but simply an agreed upon common law, rooted in undeniable truth.

Hence the need for constant spectacle, prosecution, communal ritual, purging the evil in public ceremonies in which all must take part and confirm that the act is just.

The simple and ironic answer is that public schools in urban cities have been purged of any integration, as the liberal elites move all their kids into private schools and elite suburbs. This leaves vast urban school districts which cater to their constituencies. Witness the recent purge conducted in the San Francisco public school district, which is incapable of actually teaching its students, and which the Bay Area elite has fled en masse. It won’t teach the kids, but it’s had time during the pandemic to carry out liberation theology ceremonies premised on historical ignorance of a mythical level.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...d-a/how-san-francisco-renamed-its-schools/amp

This is how religions work. They appeal to the masses by selling a dumbed-down version of the great evil, which they purge in communal spectacle. Just as southerners would lynch blacks and lower class folks, creating new social order through brutal communal sacrifice of the other, so these yokels enact primitive ceremonies of liberation from an omnipresent spiritual evil. CRT being the priesthood that assures them of the hidden evil power that can be found behind all things.

There’s hardly a person alive who doesn’t know it’s the theory that all of society is pervaded by racialized white power structures, which are so complex and subtle that only the great wizards can discern them and then explain to the plebes why it means they have too much stuff and so need to change the laws and give that stuff away to the people who have suffered from the omnipresent evil power structure.

Oh great Racial God, we have greatly sinned in our ignorance, thank you for giving your elect prophets the critical insight about what we have done wrong, it’s now time to atone and sacrifice, purging our alignment with the Racial Sin, so that we can achieve peace and prosperity in solidarity as a community.

Tbh this is a very interesting subject for me right now. We are currently seeing the birth of competing gnostic type religions, each premised on a mythology of hidden power and ritual liberation: QAnon and CRT. Both arise from the rather straightforward fact that sexual abuse and racism are commonplace and awful. Both then turn that banal truism into the central liberationist tenet of a political movement that profoundly delegitimizes its opposition, which is so unremittingly wicked (or at best ignorant of its complicity) that it cannot be allowed to operate freely.

Both are almost completely uncritical, ironically, about how this attack on opaque omnipresent power is itself a political attack, grounded in serving contingent political and economic advantage for the conflicting factions.

And this is why the country is getting less and less tolerable with each decade, becoming a bunch of crusading fanatics.

smart, articulate, intelligent post. I wish sherdog had more of those.

Member when TS wanted to assault a conservative teen for smiling and lied and smeared him? I member.

yeah and he’s constantly trying to live down his behaviour with his holier than you gimmick.

 

[marcusesjonestownmassacre]

It boggles my mind that people actually support these made up bullshit terms. It's incredible how easily brainwashed some of you are.

do you not know what crt is or?

 

[marcusesjonestownmassacre]

This may present a conundrum for right wingers, many of whom, who have set themselves up as champions of "absolute free speech" and anti- "cancel culture."

In September 2020, the Trump administration told federal agencies to “begin to identify all contracts or other agency spending related to any training on ‘critical race theory,’” which it described as “un-American propaganda.”

A month later, the conservative government in Britain declared some applications of critical race theory in education illegal. “We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt," said Tory Kemi Badenoch.

Republicans in West Virginia and Oklahoma have introduced bills banning schools and, in West Virginia’s case, state contractors from promoting “divisive concepts,” including claims that “the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist.” A New Hampshire Republican also proposed a “divisive concepts” ban, saying in a hearing, “This bill addresses something called critical race theory.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Edit: I will include this quote in the OP since it illustrates the issue at question, I think:

Now, it might be your opinion that CRT is racist (I may happen to agree, but it is still an opinion).

Just like it is my opinion that creationism is bull crap and "abstinence only" sex ed is ineffective.

The question is, do states have the right to prohibit democratically elected local school boards from making decisions about their own curriculums?

This is close to actually being a First Amendment violation, imo, since the censoring body is the government. It is far different from a private company like Disney deciding to fire Gina Carono.

it would be too problematic. just fund low iqs to go into trades instead of fucking about with all this esoteric shit that they arent even smart enough to accurately conceptualize.