The Case for BJ Penn as the GOAT LW and top 15 P4P All Time

[jeff7b9]

Penn was a great fighter but didn't beat GSP. Penn's corner threw in the towel after round 4. He was owned during rounds 3/4 so right there you lost me.

He is talking about their first fight.

 

[ferrisjso]

Here's the case for BJ Penn as the LW GOAT

 

[Trabaho]

On the ground BJ Penn got lit up because of the greasing.

Without that ... MAYBE he has more energy when standing after the grappling exchanges. Maybe he catches GSP with a sub like Matt Hughes did.

Again ... we will never know for sure either way thanks to GSPs greasing.

U can think u know how it would have turned out... but u dont.

Wasn't it little grease ? But Vaseline is really slippery. That ladies and gentleman is the character of your man George St Piere. A cheater. In a phisically abusive competition. Against a guy from a division below.

 

[pankrat]

"
BJ was one of my favorite fighters during that era, maybe my favorite.


"You can easily identify in sherdog those who rate fighters based on watching them fight."
I agree. That's why watching those controversial decision doesn't play into it so much. There is no denying how great BJ was during that time. He clearly lost the GSP fight even though it was close though. He came out with a great gameplan and surprised Fitch in the first round but after that Fitch started to turn the fight in his favor.

"Overlooking such performance just because it happened to take place at WW."
Not overlooking but not counting it at LW. Again, if you want to change all the facts of his career and create an alternate universe, then I can't argue BJ isn't the GOAT LW of this new alternate universe. He lost to Frankie 3 times, got beat up by GSP and Hughes at WW and the end of his career is a cautionary tale. He's a great fighter and one of the best LW's of all time but not the GOAT IMO.

Where does it count the Lugwig win?
At WW where he wasnt ranked?
At the end of the day you just would not count it because is not that obvious to rank for the wikipedia/fightfinder/google/online ranking fans that we have on sherdog. It falls out of their "universe"

A draw with Fitch would be a great feat for any LW, including Khabib.

I do think Khabib is the LW GOAT
BJ still has a case for top10 p4p all-time doesnt matter if his record looks pretty enough to the wikipedia fans

 

[OneOfOne]

I watched BJ when he first entered the UFC all the way through his career. I don't even consider all those losses towards the end of his career and IMO they don't affect his legacy at all. However, I will disagree on BJ being the GOAT LW.

Ben Henderson vs BJ Penn

Ben IMO is ahead of BJ at LW. Ben Henderson actually has tied his title defense record, Ben defended the LW belt 3x (Melendez, Diaz, and Edgar). Not only that, Ben also has more top 10 wins, Ben Henderson actually has 10 top 10 wins at LW, almost 11 top 10 wins, Khabilov was ranked just outside #11 when they fought. It's worth noting that when BJ fought at LW, there was literally 10 fighters in the division so it was far easier to gain top 10 wins as opposed to 10 years later when the division was far deeper.

Furthermore, Ben was also the WEC LW champion which was just as strong at the UFC LW division. If we compare them in their primes at LW, Ben also has a more impressive record at 21-5 (I'll consider it till he went up to WW in the UFC) while BJ was 11-3-1. Ben also has a better resume of higher level competition.

Well I actually think it's a toss up between BJ, Bendo, and Khabib for the LW GOAT. They each have a case imo. And you're right about Henderson having 3 title defenses. I got him mixed up with Edgar and thought one of his defenses was a draw. But you're right about that. With that said I do take exception with a couple of other things you say here.

By my count Benson only has 8 top 10 wins. Who are you counting as his top 10 wins at LW? None of the guys he fought in the WEC or Bellator were ranked at the time as far as I know. I also don't consider WEC's LW division as good as the UFC's at the time. WEC had Henderson, Pettis, Cerrone, and Varner. The UFC's roster included BJ, Sherk, Frankie, Maynard, Jim Miller, Diego, Diaz, Florian, Guida, and others.

But like I said Benson does have a case for it just not a clear cut one. I don't consider their competition significantly better than BJ's. I also value Penn's finishing ability. When Penn won a fight he left no doubt.

Khabib vs BJ Penn

I mean 28-0 at LW, come on. The man was completely dominant and never lost a fight, he lost two rounds in his entire UFC career. Both have a similar number of fights at LW, but Khabib was far more dominant and never lost. And he did it in a far deeper and more developed LW division. Both have 3 defenses, but Khabib has the edge being undefeated and dominant.

Khabib also has a case for LW GOAT. But the important thing to remember about Khabib is that despite being in a much deeper LW division Khabib didn't actually fight that many great LWs. There is an entire slew of great LWs Khabib never fought. In fact the only high level LWs Khabib did fight was Poirer, Geathje, and Dos Anjos. He managed to cruise along the UFC LW division fighting mostly mid level or lower level LWs. Guys like Trujillo, Travaras, Healy, Horcher, Iaquinta, ect.

Frankie Edgar vs BJ Penn

This one is a bit closer than the other two. But IMO Edgar is also ranked higher on the all time LW list. The most important factor is that Edgar beat him 2x in title fights. Yes, the first fight was close, but by no means a robbery and Frankie won a close fight. Even if it was close, it doesn't matter considering Edgar beat him very convincingly in the rematch 50-45. BJ has 3x, defenses, while Edgar has 2 and a retained 1x. Edgar was 15-3-1 at LW while BJ was 11-3-1. Considering all that and the head to head, Edgar >BJ.

The thing about BJ is that in both his runs at LW, he was never the best LW. In his first UFC run at LW he wasn't a champion and lost to Pulver. And that loss wasn't debatable. Pulver at the time had the more impressive career at LW and beat BJ to become champ. And in his second UFC run, despite having 3x title defenses, Frankie Edgar beat him 2x and proved he was the better fighter. BJ fans like to debate the first fight, even if that was dam close, Frankie clearly won the rematch.

Edgar does have the edge head to head. But as pointed out in the OP I think Penn got robbed in their first fight. They should be 1-1 with each other. On top of that Edgar has less title defenses and only 4 top 10 wins in the division. He's simply doesn't have the credentials to compare to BJ Penn.

 

[OneOfOne]

I don't need to be sold on BJ's greatness, I loved watching him fight in his prime. I just think the alternative universe idea where you ignore what really happened including changing some of the results, all his losses and poor management of his career (his own fault, he surrounded himself with yes people) is not one that I want to live in or even visit. You can call me closed-minded. I have no interest in going to the moon and even if Elon Musk offered me a free trip to Mars I wouldn't take it. I like it here on Earth in this universe.

In the title of this thread I said I was making a case for BJ to be a top 15 p4p fighter all time. But if you notice in the alternate universe I made the case that BJ Penn would become a top 10 p4p fighter of all time. Considering that I'm making the case for BJ to be top 15 and not top 10 guess what that would mean? That would mean that I am not judging Penn based on the alternative universe or else he'd be top 10. I also pointed out that in the alternative universe Penn would be the clear cut LW GOAT. However I acknowledge that Penn is not the clear cut LW GOAT and only has a case for it. That would again indicate that I am not judging him based on the alternative universe.

I only brought that up to illustrate how close BJ was to being a legitimate GOAT level fighter if a few things went his way. I brought it up to add context in other words.

So perhaps you just focus less on being snarky and more on reading comprehension.

 

[Eric Silva 2.0]

Where does it count the Lugwig win?
At WW where he wasnt ranked?
At the end of the day you just would not count it because is not that obvious to rank for the wikipedia/fightfinder/google/online ranking fans that we have on sherdog. It falls out of their "universe"

A draw with Fitch would be a great feat for any LW, including Khabib.

I do think Khabib is the LW GOAT
BJ still has a case for top10 p4p all-time doesnt matter if his record looks pretty enough to the wikipedia fans

"A draw with Fitch would be a great feat for any LW, including Khabib."
Agreed. I thought that was a great showing for BJ. I don't think the Ludwig fight matters that much when it comes to LW GOAT. Those type of guys were the guys Khabib toyed with. The top 10 guys (not serious contenders for the title), weren't competitive with Khabib. Those type of guys would be happy to make it to the bell standing. I'm not a guy that needs to be sold on BJ's greatness. I just think the idea of ignoring his shortcomings and calling fights robberies that were extremely close (Uno, Frankie) and victories for the other fighter (GSP 1) is intellectually dishonest. I get it, it's fun and it's hard to quantify things like P4P or even GOAT's so I guess I should apologize for not playing along enough?

 

[Eric Silva 2.0]

In the title of this thread I said I was making a case for BJ to be a top 15 p4p fighter all time. But if you notice in the alternate universe I made the case that BJ Penn would become a top 10 p4p fighter of all time. Considering that I'm making the case for BJ to be top 15 and not top 10 guess what that would mean? That would mean that I am not judging Penn based on the alternative universe or else he'd be top 10. I also pointed out that in the alternative universe Penn would be the clear cut LW GOAT. However I acknowledge that Penn is not the clear cut LW GOAT and only has a case for it. That would again indicate that I am not judging him based on the alternative universe.

I only brought that up to illustrate how close BJ was to being a legitimate GOAT level fighter if a few things went his way. I brought it up to add context in other words.

So perhaps you just focus less on being snarky and more on reading comprehension.

I'm sorry for ruffling your feathers by not stepping into your alternate universe. If you noticed, I never mentioned P4P stuff, it's too subjective. At the very top it can be fun but after that it doesn't interest me. I can always improve so maybe I could get a book on reading comprehension as per your suggestion. Do you have any recommendations?

 

[Paul E Gensinger]

BJ is up there for sure. I would put him at #2 LW behind Khabib mostly because of the inconsistency.


LW is a strange one because it is one of the only divisions that has never really had a true GOAT.
I'd be surprised if its Islam or anyone else at the top that will emerge as one

#2?

Porier, Justin, Islam, Dariush, and Oliviera could all beat him. So he couldn't possibly be #2.
Also, he lost to Frankie Edgar....a bantam weight. And what top 15 LW couldn't beat the Edgar that beat BJ Penn?
BJ is as good a LW as Tim Sylvia was a HW. Decent. Good. Top 10-15 all time.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

However, those of us who were around to actually witness his career know the truth about BJ Penn.

...that he was a 'Prodigy' in the early-to-late 2000s, when the sport was in its elementary-school years Penn was in his middle school years.

I'll give him props for being the first to move up a weight to challenge the longtime champ Matt Hughes.

But he was so naturally gifted that he felt like he barely worked for it, and when the competition upgraded in not only talent but also hard work, and Penn became a shadow of his former self.

On the overall #P4P rankings I don't have him in the top #20, and perhaps he's #5 in the LW rankings.

 

[JKS]

Well I actually think it's a toss up between BJ, Bendo, and Khabib for the LW GOAT. They each have a case imo. And you're right about Henderson having 3 title defenses. I got him mixed up with Edgar and thought one of his defenses was a draw. But you're right about that. With that said I do take exception with a couple of other things you say here.

By my count Benson only has 8 top 10 wins. Who are you counting as his top 10 wins at LW? None of the guys he fought in the WEC or Bellator were ranked at the time as far as I know. I also don't consider WEC's LW division as good as the UFC's at the time. WEC had Henderson, Pettis, Cerrone, and Varner. The UFC's roster included BJ, Sherk, Frankie, Maynard, Jim Miller, Diego, Diaz, Florian, Guida, and others.

But like I said Benson does have a case for it just not a clear cut one. I don't consider their competition significantly better than BJ's. I also value Penn's finishing ability. When Penn won a fight he left no doubt.




Khabib also has a case for LW GOAT. But the important thing to remember about Khabib is that despite being in a much deeper LW division Khabib didn't actually fight that many great LWs. There is an entire slew of great LWs Khabib never fought. In fact the only high level LWs Khabib did fight was Poirer, Geathje, and Dos Anjos. He managed to cruise along the UFC LW division fighting mostly mid level or lower level LWs. Guys like Trujillo, Travaras, Healy, Horcher, Iaquinta, ect.



Edgar does have the edge head to head. But as pointed out in the OP I think Penn got robbed in their first fight. They should be 1-1 with each other. On top of that Edgar has less title defenses and only 4 top 10 wins in the division. He's simply doesn't have the credentials to compare to BJ Penn.

Some of his WEC wins were ranked top 10. Back then there were many rankings but they appeared on some. The way I see it, when you have one guy going 21-5 at LW and the other 11-3-1, you gotta give Benson the +1. When both guys have 3 title defenses, it's even, but then you consider Ben winning and defending the WEC belt, that's another +1. Both have have a similar amount of top 10 wins so that's even. And beating guys like Melendez, Diaz, Edgar 2x, Cerrone 2x, Thompson is certainly a better resume of top LW'a than what BJ did, so that's another +1. Not to knock BJs comp, but come on, Ben's wins are stronger. He's got +3 here.

Khabib didn't beat that many great LW's, RDA, Poirier, Gaethje are his best wins and you got Conor, Edson and Johnson as the next. But to be honest, BJ didn't beat many great LWs. I have Gomi in there, but beside that guys like Stevenson, Pulver in 2006 weren't that great. Florian and Sherk barely had a career at LW. His entire resume honestly is pretty average. Khabib certainly beat more elite level LWs. And again, completely dominant and never lost.

About the so called robbery, you can't really take a close fight like that and spin it in BJs favor and call it a win. Even if BJ got the nod or a draw, Edgar's win the next fight was far more convincing. You basically have one close fight and one where Edgar clearly won. One way or the other he's still ahead H2H. But yah, Edgar did win the first fight, you cant really change the result. Best you can is call is a close one. Edgar has less top 10 wins, but you gotta consider that he's got two wins over BJ, Maynard, Sherk, Franca, Fisher and Griffin. That resume is certainly on par with Penn, take into consideration the H2H and he's ahead IMO.

 

[NikLuk]

I mean 28-0 at LW

Khabib is not 28-0 at LW. As far as I can see Khabib is 16-0 at LW. The rest of his fights were at WW or catch weight.

 

[Discjockeyshtud]

Khabib is a weight-bully, BJ bullied weight bullies while outsized at welterweight, arguably lightweight taking titles in both, fought once at light-heavyweight against fing Lyoto and fought till every last wheel fell off

 

[Pilo]

As much as BJ once was a fantastic fighter, what's really gonna be left on people's minds when they hear his name now is how much of a disgrace the lengthy final stretch of his career has been.

It's actually so drastic that it kinda outweighs all the previous achievements.

 

[Mind Mine]

BJ’s prime was right before my time. I started watching him toward what I guess was the beginning of the decline. I always knew he was a legend because of the sentiment of other fans. He should have stayed retired

 

[pankrat]

Some of his WEC wins were ranked top 10. Back then there were many rankings but they appeared on some. The way I see it, when you have one guy going 21-5 at LW and the other 11-3-1, you gotta give Benson the +1. When both guys have 3 title defenses, it's even, but then you consider Ben winning and defending the WEC belt, that's another +1. Both have have a similar amount of top 10 wins so that's even. And beating guys like Melendez, Diaz, Edgar 2x, Cerrone 2x, Thompson is certainly a better resume of top LW'a than what BJ did, so that's another +1. Not to knock BJs comp, but come on, Ben's wins are stronger. He's got +3 here.

Khabib didn't beat that many great LW's, RDA, Poirier, Gaethje are his best wins and you got Conor, Edson and Johnson as the next. But to be honest, BJ didn't beat many great LWs. I have Gomi in there, but beside that guys like Stevenson, Pulver in 2006 weren't that great. Florian and Sherk barely had a career at LW. His entire resume honestly is pretty average. Khabib certainly beat more elite level LWs. And again, completely dominant and never lost.

About the so called robbery, you can't really take a close fight like that and spin it in BJs favor and call it a win. Even if BJ got the nod or a draw, Edgar's win the next fight was far more convincing. You basically have one close fight and one where Edgar clearly won. One way or the other he's still ahead H2H. But yah, Edgar did win the first fight, you cant really change the result. Best you can is call is a close one. Edgar has less top 10 wins, but you gotta consider that he's got two wins over BJ, Maynard, Sherk, Franca, Fisher and Griffin. That resume is certainly on par with Penn, take into consideration the H2H and he's ahead IMO.

A close fight is a close fight. Depends on the subjective and often arbitrary criteria of a judge who is "forced" to declare a winner even when not even himself sees a clear winner.

It's classic shetard-minded approach to give full-credit only if it appears in the record as an W, and not give credit at all when its refflected as an L on paper.
A great example of it are BJ and Bendo's respective fights/outcomes vs Frankie Edgar. More so considering Ben is a bigger/heavier man than BJ.

More shertard-minded approach is to overlok/disminish wins over prime Gomi or Uno just because they don't appear as "tittle defenses"....let alone while at the same time pretending to hype WEC wins.

More shetard-minded approach is to completely overlook a win over top10 LW at the time Ludwig because it happened to take place at WW, even when BJ himself is also a LW and actually a smaller man than Ludwig.

More shertard-minded approach is to rate the same a W by controversial close decision, and a W by emphatic finish.


All the aforementioned basically sums up the difference between people who rate fighters based on actual fights....and the classic shertard aproach based on paper/wikipedia/fightfinder.

And all the aforementioned sums up why just about nobody in the MMA community (I dont say sherdog forum, I say MMA communty) rates Ben Henderson over BJ Penn, doesnt matter how you slice it.

 

[AmonTobin]

I was a huge fan until the 2nd Edgar fight. BJ Penn was called the prodigy for a reason. Naturally gifted in brawling and jiu jitsu. Didn't put in the hard work and dedication to be elite. He certainly deserves to be on a top 25 best chins in MMA list. I see him as a fighter who peaked early but was eventually surpassed by the weight division's growing talent. Taking his loss record into account really bumps him out of any real top fighter or GOAT list for me.

 

[mkt]

They both have 3 title defences

but Khabib is 29-0 and BJ is 16-14-2

Incredibly stupid comparison when you consider that BJ fought quite a few WWs, fought freakin' Lyoto Machida and fought for many years past his prime....while Khabib ran back home to be with mommy at his peak around age 31. BJ actually fought GSP (rematch) while the LW champ. That's one of his losses. Why didn't Khabib fight Usman?

But to be fair, there can be a case for Khabib and BJ being tied as both of them finished all 3 of their opponents in title defenses (unlike Bendo and Frankie Edgar who also have 3 title defenses). But BJ beating prime Gomi outside the UFC and winning the WW belt are things Khabib never did...so TS has a good point.

 

[mkt]

Taking his loss record into account really bumps him out of any real top fighter or GOAT list for me.

It shouldn't. Is Fedor knocked down a few notches by losing to Mitrione and Bader (twice)...two guys who never got title shots in the UFC? By your logic, every champ should retire after a few successful title defenses to maximize their win/loss ratio.

 

[SpedDaddyV]

Why do people act like BJ Penn lost a legitimate fight against a random guy in a bar fight? He was absolutely drunk and standing still when a much larger guy punched him clean in the face. There was no fight. If I walked up to Jon Jones while he is drunk and hit him with a clean 1-2 while he is standing still I have a chance of knocking him out too