UFC FOX 22 - PVS vs Waterson - Sacramento

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Yes, so mature. This entire discussion starts with you disrespecting anyone who is betting the other side.

And holy shit at how insecure you must be. I don't think there is anything in this thread where it could be interpreted that I am trying to make you out to be a losing bettor. The only fight I brought up was Miller/Caceres, and I made it very clear to point out it was for the purpose of showing just how stubborn you can be on fights and not because you lost a bet. That's exactly what you are doing here by failing to acknowledge the logic in people betting the other side. There is nothing in here that has me attacking if you are a winning or losing bettor lol.
I never disrespected anyone. But this is what conversing with you is. Twist my words, point out losses as if they're relevant when they're not, I know the routine

Not insecure, just pointing out how dumb it is going the old "oh remember when you lost that bet?" route w me when everyone knows I'm a gangsta with this shit.

I don't feel there is any logic in backing Gall as a favorite. If there were an argument to acknowledge, I would. I have contemplated all there is to. This is my opinion. Deal with it
 
Hey JB. Sage sucks bro. Gall gonna fuck him up. There's my breakdown.

Just kidding man. I respect your passion
 
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http://www.mmaoddsbreaker.com/news/ufc-on-fox-22-betting-odds/

There’s a reason Michelle Waterson used to fight at atomweight. While she’s a skilled, capable striker and a solid submission grappler, which will be enough against the Angela Maganas of the world, her physical limitations will show up when she faces top strawweights. Paige VanZant is far from perfect technically, and Waterson can win if VanZant plays the same ranged striking game she did against Bec Rawlings. However, I expect VanZant to get back to her strength, which is getting in close range and simply putting a pace on opponents that they cannot withstand. In grappling exchanges and scrambles, her pure energy and athleticism can best most of the women at 115, and I believe that’s how she beats Waterson.

Sage Northcutt is a more dynamic striker than Mickey Gall, but his struggles on the ground have been extremely apparent even against the likes of Enrique Morin. Even more worrisome is the lack of improvement he’s made in that area. Against Gall, who has shown he will aggressively pursue the takedown, Northcutt will never get a chance to work at the range he wants. Once this fight hits the ground, I expect Gall to find a sub rather swiftly and continue his interesting rise to stardom.

Urijah Faber is still an elite athlete in the bantamweight division, and that coupled with his experience in virtually every situation will carry him to victories against all but the top five or so at 135. Brad Pickett hasn’t fit into that group in a long time, if ever. Faber will be able to get his one-off punches to land on Pickett without repercussions, where Jimmie Rivera was able to land counters. Faber can score takedowns if need be, and perhaps even find his guillotine or a rear-naked choke in a scramble. Depending on how much of his legendary durability remains, Pickett could stick this out to a decision, but Faber is an all-time great finisher so I’m torn on the method, but he wins.

We’ve seen Alan Jouban rocked in fights before. Thus far in his career, Mike Perry has taken shots like they’re Jagerbombs on South Beach. We know both guys will come forward and throw with reckless abandon. I just think Perry’s chin holds up better and he scores his ninth TKO in nine pro fights.

Thus far in his career, the “Bearjew” Paul Craig has used his length to snatch submissions in short order. His wrestling game isn’t much to write home about, and that’s a recipe which will simply stop working at this level before long. Craig’s length can normally force opponents into uncomfortable situations, and that mitigates some of his wrestling woes, but that won’t happen against “Frank Waisten” who almost matches his size, but is a significantly better striker with no reason to take this down. We’ll learn how Craig reacts in a tough spot here, but without seeing it first, I’ll have to side with Henrique da Silva.

Does Cole Miller care about fighting anymore? His last performance certainly imtimated not, but maybe it could act like a wakeup call. It’s really hard to envision that, since most fighters only go further out the door rather than back in it, however Mizuto Hirota’s style could give Miller a shot here. In a grappling match, Miller can catch a sub even if he’s on the bottom, but he’ll be outpaced on the feet and it’s difficult to bank on a fighter winning from their back in 2016. If I can get one more dog price on fading Miller at this point, I’m taking it.

Bryan Barberena is tough and durable. As fights go on, he turns into a round winner if his opponent is the type who tires. His skills are secondary to those traits, and unfortunately for him, that’s a problem against Colby Covington. Covington’s physical skills are superior to Barberena, and his wrestling is obviously the biggest difference in this match. I don’t see Barberena being able to stuff enough of Covington’s takedowns early to be able to really take over late. So maybe he wins the third round, but a 30-27 seems more likely.

Something about Alex Morono has never impressed me, and getting a wholly underesved split decision over a faded Kyle Noke did nothing to asuage those doubts. James Moontasri is a far better striker here, and neither man really relies on their grappling. I think in a striking battle Moontasri’s cardio won’t be an issue, and he carries his technical advantage throughout the fight if he doesn’t score a stoppage earlier.

If Josh Emmett’s UFC debut was over someone other than Jon Tuck, it would mean a lot more to me. Luckily, his follow up fight is against Scott Holtzman, who I’ve also never been high on. Holtzman doesn’t provide the opportunity for excellent lines that he once did, and I think Emmett is too big of a favorite here, but I think the Team Alpha Male product nullifies Holtzman’s athleticism and gets the win regardless. This is more of a learning fight for me in regards to Emmett than anything.

Leslie Smith hasn’t had a relevant win in nearly three and a half years, isn’t nearly as durable as she once was, and seems to be on a physical decline. Hyped favorites in women’s fights are often overpriced, and I believe Irene Aldana is here, but at the same time I have no reason to suspect that Smith can stand up to her striking ability. Aldana’s cardio has been questionable in the past, but I think this fight is out of reach for Smith by the time that becomes a factor, if it does at all.

I expect Eddie Wineland’s new lease on a top ten run at bantamweight to continue against Takeya Mizugaki. Wineland’s distance management does an excellent job of takedown defense before all but his most difficult opponents can ever get much going in the wrestling game, and his striking is well beyond what Mizugaki offers. I don’t think Wineland scores a stoppage against Mizugaki, but I hardly considered that a possibility against Frankie Saenz in his last fight, and he looked excellent.

Hector Sandoval has fought three fighters who are (or were, at the time) capable of competing in the UFC. His record is 12-3, with all three losses coming by stoppage in the first two minutes. Want to guess who he suffered those three losses against? He seems like the definition of a guy who is good enough to make it to the big dance, but can’t stick around. Fredy Serrano is seven years older than Sandoval, but I believe he belongs here. I don’t expect him to score a sub-two minute stoppage — or perhaps even a stoppage at all — but at worst, his wrestling can carry him to a clear decision.

Sultan Aliev is one of those guys where you go, “Oh. He’s still on the roster?” It’s been nearly two years since he got knocked out by Kenny Robertson in his only UFC bout, and it’s been nearly four years since he first came on the scene and looked good in a Bellator tournament, before getting absolutely hosed by the judges against Doug Marshall. None of that changes that he seems less effective as a welterweight than he did as a middleweight (and higher). Even with all of the weight cutting, he’ll still be at a size disadvantage against Bojan Velickovic who began to show what he’s capable of against Mike Graves, and should continue to do the same here. I think Velickovic overpowers Aliev to a ho-hum decision worthy of being the opening Fight Pass bout.
 
JB , if your sticking with your gut and winning long term then not much else to say.

There is something to be said for sticking with your intuition. I have been a bit wishy washy and convinced out of bets i should have stayed with.

I disagree with you about Sage/Gall but i completely understand you going with Sages xp over Gall. its just too bad you will lose $ on this one ;)
 
I normally try and stay away from the personal talks on these threads but Jb is right. I think a lot of people are still in the mindset that Sage is overrated and wanna fade him purely on that. He's been exposed and the price reflects that now, there's no value in fading him anymore
 
Have to watch tape, but iirc isn't waterson more foward pressing and active with her strikes? I think she could steal a decision. And isn't she on top more than on the bottom? I really don't rate PVZ highly as she's more of a cheerleader.
 
http://www.mmaoddsbreaker.com/news/ufc-on-fox-22-betting-odds/

There’s a reason Michelle Waterson used to fight at atomweight. While she’s a skilled, capable striker and a solid submission grappler, which will be enough against the Angela Maganas of the world, her physical limitations will show up when she faces top strawweights. Paige VanZant is far from perfect technically, and Waterson can win if VanZant plays the same ranged striking game she did against Bec Rawlings. However, I expect VanZant to get back to her strength, which is getting in close range and simply putting a pace on opponents that they cannot withstand. In grappling exchanges and scrambles, her pure energy and athleticism can best most of the women at 115, and I believe that’s how she beats Waterson.

Sage Northcutt is a more dynamic striker than Mickey Gall, but his struggles on the ground have been extremely apparent even against the likes of Enrique Morin. Even more worrisome is the lack of improvement he’s made in that area. Against Gall, who has shown he will aggressively pursue the takedown, Northcutt will never get a chance to work at the range he wants. Once this fight hits the ground, I expect Gall to find a sub rather swiftly and continue his interesting rise to stardom.

Urijah Faber is still an elite athlete in the bantamweight division, and that coupled with his experience in virtually every situation will carry him to victories against all but the top five or so at 135. Brad Pickett hasn’t fit into that group in a long time, if ever. Faber will be able to get his one-off punches to land on Pickett without repercussions, where Jimmie Rivera was able to land counters. Faber can score takedowns if need be, and perhaps even find his guillotine or a rear-naked choke in a scramble. Depending on how much of his legendary durability remains, Pickett could stick this out to a decision, but Faber is an all-time great finisher so I’m torn on the method, but he wins.

We’ve seen Alan Jouban rocked in fights before. Thus far in his career, Mike Perry has taken shots like they’re Jagerbombs on South Beach. We know both guys will come forward and throw with reckless abandon. I just think Perry’s chin holds up better and he scores his ninth TKO in nine pro fights.

Thus far in his career, the “Bearjew” Paul Craig has used his length to snatch submissions in short order. His wrestling game isn’t much to write home about, and that’s a recipe which will simply stop working at this level before long. Craig’s length can normally force opponents into uncomfortable situations, and that mitigates some of his wrestling woes, but that won’t happen against “Frank Waisten” who almost matches his size, but is a significantly better striker with no reason to take this down. We’ll learn how Craig reacts in a tough spot here, but without seeing it first, I’ll have to side with Henrique da Silva.

Does Cole Miller care about fighting anymore? His last performance certainly imtimated not, but maybe it could act like a wakeup call. It’s really hard to envision that, since most fighters only go further out the door rather than back in it, however Mizuto Hirota’s style could give Miller a shot here. In a grappling match, Miller can catch a sub even if he’s on the bottom, but he’ll be outpaced on the feet and it’s difficult to bank on a fighter winning from their back in 2016. If I can get one more dog price on fading Miller at this point, I’m taking it.

Bryan Barberena is tough and durable. As fights go on, he turns into a round winner if his opponent is the type who tires. His skills are secondary to those traits, and unfortunately for him, that’s a problem against Colby Covington. Covington’s physical skills are superior to Barberena, and his wrestling is obviously the biggest difference in this match. I don’t see Barberena being able to stuff enough of Covington’s takedowns early to be able to really take over late. So maybe he wins the third round, but a 30-27 seems more likely.

Something about Alex Morono has never impressed me, and getting a wholly underesved split decision over a faded Kyle Noke did nothing to asuage those doubts. James Moontasri is a far better striker here, and neither man really relies on their grappling. I think in a striking battle Moontasri’s cardio won’t be an issue, and he carries his technical advantage throughout the fight if he doesn’t score a stoppage earlier.

If Josh Emmett’s UFC debut was over someone other than Jon Tuck, it would mean a lot more to me. Luckily, his follow up fight is against Scott Holtzman, who I’ve also never been high on. Holtzman doesn’t provide the opportunity for excellent lines that he once did, and I think Emmett is too big of a favorite here, but I think the Team Alpha Male product nullifies Holtzman’s athleticism and gets the win regardless. This is more of a learning fight for me in regards to Emmett than anything.

Leslie Smith hasn’t had a relevant win in nearly three and a half years, isn’t nearly as durable as she once was, and seems to be on a physical decline. Hyped favorites in women’s fights are often overpriced, and I believe Irene Aldana is here, but at the same time I have no reason to suspect that Smith can stand up to her striking ability. Aldana’s cardio has been questionable in the past, but I think this fight is out of reach for Smith by the time that becomes a factor, if it does at all.

I expect Eddie Wineland’s new lease on a top ten run at bantamweight to continue against Takeya Mizugaki. Wineland’s distance management does an excellent job of takedown defense before all but his most difficult opponents can ever get much going in the wrestling game, and his striking is well beyond what Mizugaki offers. I don’t think Wineland scores a stoppage against Mizugaki, but I hardly considered that a possibility against Frankie Saenz in his last fight, and he looked excellent.

Hector Sandoval has fought three fighters who are (or were, at the time) capable of competing in the UFC. His record is 12-3, with all three losses coming by stoppage in the first two minutes. Want to guess who he suffered those three losses against? He seems like the definition of a guy who is good enough to make it to the big dance, but can’t stick around. Fredy Serrano is seven years older than Sandoval, but I believe he belongs here. I don’t expect him to score a sub-two minute stoppage — or perhaps even a stoppage at all — but at worst, his wrestling can carry him to a clear decision.

Sultan Aliev is one of those guys where you go, “Oh. He’s still on the roster?” It’s been nearly two years since he got knocked out by Kenny Robertson in his only UFC bout, and it’s been nearly four years since he first came on the scene and looked good in a Bellator tournament, before getting absolutely hosed by the judges against Doug Marshall. None of that changes that he seems less effective as a welterweight than he did as a middleweight (and higher). Even with all of the weight cutting, he’ll still be at a size disadvantage against Bojan Velickovic who began to show what he’s capable of against Mike Graves, and should continue to do the same here. I think Velickovic overpowers Aliev to a ho-hum decision worthy of being the opening Fight Pass bout.

it's funny. i disagree with brad what seems like.. 66-75% of the time. it's kinda remarkable how often.

...i kinda agree with every pick here, for once
 
JB , if your sticking with your gut and winning long term then not much else to say.

There is something to be said for sticking with your intuition. I have been a bit wishy washy and convinced out of bets i should have stayed with.

I disagree with you about Sage/Gall but i completely understand you going with Sages xp over Gall. its just too bad you will lose $ on this one ;)
Everyone struggles on certain fights and feels strongly about others. i better trust my intuition though with how much of my time I dedicate to this shit lol I just feel like I make a good argument. I'd honestly be a lot less vocal about this if anyone else saw things the way I did. That's the most shocking thing, this reeks of a fight where at the end everyone is going "why did I bet the guy who's best win is cm punk?" and as a favorite no less
 
Everyone struggles on certain fights and feels strongly about others. i better trust my intuition though with how much of my time I dedicate to this shit lol I just feel like I make a good argument. I'd honestly be a lot less vocal about this if anyone else saw things the way I did. That's the most shocking thing, this reeks of a fight where at the end everyone is going "why did I bet the guy who's best win is cm punk?" and as a favorite no less
Just to clarify, you bet Sage but not a substantial amount right?
 
I'm not. But when Marcelo Garcia fails at MMA, why are people acting like it's a sure thing this kids skills will just translate to UFC level?

Joe you are my boy but nobody is saying Gall would be a great bet at -300 (at least I don't think they are). Nobody thinks it's "a sure thing". Marcelo had one fight, didn't like getting punched, and called it a career. Is it POSSIBLE Gall reacts the same way when he faces adversity? Sure. But it's equally (I'd argue more) likely that Gall is a tough NJ kid that was probably in plenty of fist fights when he was younger and has been punched plenty of times before and won't wilt when he is hit in the cage. And the grappling chops are there (not Marcelo obviously, but then he's fighting a guy who's shown serious flaws in his grappling game, and not a seasoned UFC vet who's done well in the grappling dept).

Let me put it this way:

We've seen Sage tap to a sloppy, loose head/arm choke from Barb. The fact that Barb is a legit UFC fighter isn't really relevant because your eyes can tell you that choke wasn't set up well, wasn't from the best finishing position, and wasn't super deep. We have evidence of Sage's grappling deficiencies. We've seen Gall throw a few winging punches so we can say odds are his striking isn't gonna be super sharp but Marcelo losing one MMA fight isn't really any sort of evidence that Gall's grappling skills won't translate. I think you know that.
 
Just to clarify, you bet Sage but not a substantial amount right?
At +140 I bet 1.5u and that'll be it for me. Still, I don't bet 1.5u unless I really like the play. I can't help but love a price like that with the thoughts I've shared about how I feel about this fight
 
Sage is a quitter. He don't look like he takes his training seriously and would rather do an extra set of bicep curls
 
Joe you are my boy but nobody is saying Gall would be a great bet at -300 (at least I don't think they are). Nobody thinks it's "a sure thing". Marcelo had one fight, didn't like getting punched, and called it a career. Is it POSSIBLE Gall reacts the same way when he faces adversity? Sure. But it's equally (I'd argue more) likely that Gall is a tough NJ kid that was probably in plenty of fist fights when he was younger and has been punched plenty of times before and won't wilt when he is hit in the cage. And the grappling chops are there (not Marcelo obviously, but then he's fighting a guy who's shown serious flaws in his grappling game, and not a seasoned UFC vet who's done well in the grappling dept).

Let me put it this way:

We've seen Sage tap to a sloppy, loose head/arm choke from Barb. The fact that Barb is a legit UFC fighter isn't really relevant because your eyes can tell you that choke wasn't set up well, wasn't from the best finishing position, and wasn't super deep. We have evidence of Sage's grappling deficiencies. We've seen Gall throw a few winging punches so we can say odds are his striking isn't gonna be super sharp but Marcelo losing one MMA fight isn't really any sort of evidence that Gall's grappling skills won't translate. I think you know that.
OK so we have arguments on both sides, right. Sage doesn't look like a good grappler in certain fights, and there are plenty of better jiu jitsu practitioners who had trouble or needed time to be able to compete against someone even at Sages level

So than why don't look to other things, like the dog being the guy who has legitimate MMA experience And the other guy has fought people many levels below Sage and is making a sizeable leap in comp?
 
So pissed I have to wait six days to get an answer to this fight and be done w it lol
 
So pissed I have to wait six days to get an answer to this fight and be done w it lol

We should figure out a way to safely make bets with one another online. like if the money could be held in an escrow until the event. man that would be fun and sure settle disputes on here...
 
We should figure out a way to safely make bets with one another online. like if the money could be held in an escrow until the event. man that would be fun and sure settle disputes on here...

I think posting a slip with the same amount on different sides would Be the equalient. Really no risk.
 
OK so we have arguments on both sides, right. Sage doesn't look like a good grappler in certain fights, and there are plenty of better jiu jitsu practitioners who had trouble or needed time to be able to compete against someone even at Sages level

So than why don't look to other things, like the dog being the guy who has legitimate MMA experience And the other guy has fought people many levels below Sage and is making a sizeable leap in comp?

I hear you, but sometimes there's outliers and you can't just look at level of competition in MMA and that's it. I'm trying to find fights to compare this one to, I guess maybe Lesnar/Mir I? Lesnar had beaten one can overseas (like, a CM Punk level can) and then jumped up in competition to the former HW champ. Obviously Lesnar has some unique physical attributes, but Gall will be the bigger guy here. Lesnar had his amateur wrestling background, Gall has his sub grappling background.

Now, I realize this isn't a perfect comparison. It's off the top of my head, maybe there's a better example that I'm not thinking of. Mir won (for the record, he's my favorite all time fighter and I was betting fights back then and did bet on him and won) but he EASILY could have been pounded out in that fight. The bigger point is that if you went mainly off level of MMA competition faced, Mir should have been about -800 in that fight. But everyone knew by using their eyes that line would make zero sense. So the line was close, like this one is. The fight could have gone either way. Mir caught him.

I'm not just outright dismissing level of MMA competition faced. It's one factor of many to consider. Personally, I'll be very comfortable with a bet on Sage around +150. You grabbed him +140, I can get behind that. He's +100 now, no value to me at that price. I probably cap Gall at -150 maybe. Right now it's a pass for me. Of course I'll hit a prop or two small if the line stays where it is, but I'll pass on the ML. If there's movement, I'll bet it. I will admit, I'm rooting for Gall to hit + odds because I'd rather bet on the guy that I think is gonna win. But if I could get Sage +150 and then hedge with Gall sub I'm fine with that for sure too.
 
I hear you, but sometimes there's outliers and you can't just look at level of competition in MMA and that's it. I'm trying to find fights to compare this one to, I guess maybe Lesnar/Mir I? Lesnar had beaten one can overseas (like, a CM Punk level can) and then jumped up in competition to the former HW champ. Obviously Lesnar has some unique physical attributes, but Gall will be the bigger guy here. Lesnar had his amateur wrestling background, Gall has his sub grappling background.

Now, I realize this isn't a perfect comparison. It's off the top of my head, maybe there's a better example that I'm not thinking of. Mir won (for the record, he's my favorite all time fighter and I was betting fights back then and did bet on him and won) but he EASILY could have been pounded out in that fight. The bigger point is that if you went mainly off level of MMA competition faced, Mir should have been about -800 in that fight. But everyone knew by using their eyes that line would make zero sense. So the line was close, like this one is. The fight could have gone either way. Mir caught him.

I'm not just outright dismissing level of MMA competition faced. It's one factor of many to consider. Personally, I'll be very comfortable with a bet on Sage around +150. You grabbed him +140, I can get behind that. He's +100 now, no value to me at that price. I probably cap Gall at -150 maybe. Right now it's a pass for me. Of course I'll hit a prop or two small if the line stays where it is, but I'll pass on the ML. If there's movement, I'll bet it. I will admit, I'm rooting for Gall to hit + odds because I'd rather bet on the guy that I think is gonna win. But if I could get Sage +150 and then hedge with Gall sub I'm fine with that for sure too.
That might be the best example as far as big leap in comp, but Brock is a once in a lifetime athlete And was a wrassler (as a fellow long time fan im sure you recall that being the time where being a wrestler/boxer made you elite right off that bat lol we've come a long way)and its HW. If we're talking HW I feel like looking at Werdum or Marcio Cruz are better examples of much higher level JJ guys showing that it takes time to adapt it to MMA.

I think this experience is really getting overlooked. It can't be stressed enough how big of a leap this is for Gall, despite Sages deficiencies
 
That might be the best example as far as big leap in comp, but Brock is a once in a lifetime athlete And was a wrassler (as a fellow long time fan im sure you recall that being the time where being a wrestler/boxer made you elite right off that bat lol we've come a long way)and its HW. If we're talking HW I feel like looking at Werdum or Marcio Cruz are better examples of much higher level JJ guys showing that it takes time to adapt it to MMA.

I think this experience is really getting overlooked. It can't be stressed enough how big of a leap this is for Gall, despite Sages deficiencies

It wasn't THAT long ago LOL. I think Brock's physical attributes obviously are the thing that make the comparison tough, but that said Lesnar was stepping in against a former champ (still in his early 30's so not way over the hill or anything) and Gall is stepping in against a 21 year old prospect who's pretty inexperienced himself. (Yes, obviously better competition and more experience than Gall, but in terms of the comparison not even in the same stratosphere as Mir).

Interesting you brought up Pe De Pano though. He had one fight against a 2-2 nobody and then fought Mir in his 2nd pro fight. Yes, it was bad version of Mir coming off the motorcycle accident, but Cruz beat him using his grappling! And Mir was a WAY more accomplished fighter than Sage is, he was the former champ and obviously a terrific grappler himself. And even if you want to discard that Mir win (and as a Mir fan, I can tell you he shouldn't really have been fighting that soon after that accident), Pe De Pano then fought Jeff Monson! Monson had like 30 pro fights at that point (some against good competition). And Pe De Pano lost a boring decision in that one. So there you have an elite grappler stepping right in and facing FAR more proven competition than Sage and doing just fine.
 
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