A catch wrestlers thoughts

[Dece]

Yeah I had tried time and time again for ages, and this is genuinely the first time I've heard about their weekly classes. Couldn't tell you what the issue is though!

Well my guess then is that maybe there's too many people trying to contact them? I know everytime Andrea is around it seems like she gets a phone call about every 5 minutes. I would suggest to try on facebook. There's a couple of catchwrestling groups were they are active and easy to get in touch with. Write a post in the biggest one with a couple of thousand members and I'll guess you get a reply.

 

[Dece]

Like, what are you really gonna learn from 'catch' that you're not gonna get from crosstraining your BJJ with a folkstyle guy who wrestled in college, really. I learn from folkstyle guys with real accomplishments in a real sport every time I step on the mats

I think with folkstyle you get a great idea about the basics but if we would use BJJ terms you would at best be a blue belt. I think what catch does really good is integrating the submissions with the wrestling. Amateur wrestlers will miss out on this part. The way I see it is that as an amateur you will have the pieces of the puzzle but will need catch to put it together. If you just add BJJ you will only add more pieces.

However I do believe that to be a complete grappler training BJJ is a must. The catch will teach you how to avoid being pinned and at the same time fight back with submissions. However once you end up getting pinned that's when you need BJJ.

Like neil melanson? What is his catch connection, the times he claims to have trained with karo (karo was a drug addict) and apparently not many guys from hayastan has seen him.

For Melanson it's just a way for him to market his dvds. He started out a Bart Vale associated shootfighting school. Moved to Hayastan and trained there for about 1 year.

When Neil started marketing his style he originally called it American jiu jitsu. He did that until Jake Shields started doing the same. Couldn't compete with Shields so he had to change the name and ended up calling it catch wrestling.

In the catch wrestling communities he is mostly ignored. He was in contact with ISWA but it turns out Melanson had no idea about it. He didn't know that catch wrestling competitions actually included pins so he lost interest when he found out.

Personally I don't think it's anything wrong with his skill set or coaching abilities but I think his idea to market it as catch wrestling is silly.

 

[Kforcer]

Nope, the only misunderstanding is failing to see that what happened in Japan was a bunch of crosstraining in different grappling sports. When the japanese MMA-fighters showed up they didn't label themselves as catch wrestlers, they were using labels like shootfighting, shoot-wrestling, shooto or hybrid wrestling.

You're definitely wrong about Koga's role. He had a role with Satoru Sayama and thus with early Shooto through Sayama. Not so with Pancrase, RINGs, the second incarnation of the UWF or the UWF-I, which were major parts of the Japanese catch movement and in fact, bigger parts of it than Shooto was; Shooto was much smaller, perhaps partially by design. The leglock game of Funaki and Suzuki and also of Tamura over in RINGs, was not a product of Koga. Funaki and Suzuki were trained by Fujiwara. Tamura was trained by Billy Robinson, Lou Thesz and Akira Maeda. He did trained at Kiguchi Dojo and he did learn study sambo over there, but that was later in his career and that doesn't erase his earlier training.

As far as the name; Sayama referred to Shooto as "shooting", that's true. Bart Vale referred to what he did as shoot-fighting. But that term was much more widespread in America, via Yori Nakamura and Vale, than in Japan. As I previously stated, Pancrase referred to no-gi grappling as "catch wrestling". Sakuraba referred to what he was doing in the UWF-i as catch-wrestling. Pancrase still to this day calls their no-gi competitions "catch wrestling." The reason they called their competition Pancrase was because that was what Gotch said his style was, "pankration." They took the name from him.

Addressing Paul Prehn--he demonstrates the figure-four toe-hold, which is exactly the same hold you see Funaki use to submit Bas Rutten in their first fight. And if you read his description, he describes other applications of it which he doesn't show in photographs but are the same sorts of applications you saw guys like Funaki do and what you see all the time today--he referred to "grapevining" the leg. That is actually exactly the move I used to finish the last grappling match I had, about 6 years ago now. And actually, that figure four toe-hold, you don't see it in sambo, it wasn't ubiquitous in BJJ, you never saw it in Japanese jujutsu photographs or drawings that I know of either (you did see the Achilles lock, for example, SK Uyenishi demonstrated it).

You said, "Nope BJJ took over" but it is absolutely true that guys like Minoru Suzuki rejected BJJ wholeheartedly. Funaki studied it, but Suzuki never embraced it. Funaki criticized Pancrase, after he'd retired, for not studying BJJ more so than they had.

 

[Kforcer]

Regarding the standing leglock entries--you see some of them in sambo, the rolling kneebar and the flying scissor most commonly. You don't really see the sliding entries that guys like Funaki so often pulled off. You see them more now, though the rules don't make them so easy to execute, but I think that is because of the Japanese influence, not vice versa (I have seen some beautiful Imanari rolls in sambo). But clearly, that was a big part of catch-as-catch-can, whether certain groups today want to say so or not--the broomstick takedown is in some ways a neutered version of a rolling leglock. It is literally a rolling leglock where you pin the man instead of attacking the leglock. And you certainly see them in old-school professional wrestling, though they usually roll into a leg compression rather than a straight ankle or kneebar. But certainly if you can roll into a leglock compression, which is trickier in the first place, you can rolling into an Achilles or a kneebar.

And actually, Karl Gotch said that the first time he was in the Snakepit, someone dropped for a leglock on him from standing and wrenched it. The story is related in the book "Fighting."

 

[Kforcer]

Nope, BJJ took over. Catch wrestling is dead and so is the shootbranches when it comes to the japanese grappling sports.

I think you might be a bit younger than me, so really, when you say this, I'm not really sure when you are talking about. Yuki Nakai, who started the BJJ movement in Japan, didn't even start training BJJ until he saw Royler Gracie choke out Noboru Asahi. That was 1996. At the time the biggest no-gi competitions in Japan were Combat Wrestling, far and away. They actually drew major crowds and they were difficult for a lot of top BJJ players to win, in fact, Baret Yoshida, whom I love, couldn't make it past the first round.

Nowadays, you don't see the same approach to grappling predominate no-gi Japanese grappling that you once did, but you if you are talking about the guys from the era that most influenced me, those guys were certainly not BJJ'ists and in fact, they were definitely hugely influential on aspects of BJJ, whether its admitted or not. So if you are saying BJJ took over eventually and is predominate now, sure. But if you mean that what the guys out of Kiguchi Dojo, Pancrase, RINGs and ZST was predominately BJJ through the 90's to the early 2000's then absolutely not.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Well my guess then is that maybe there's too many people trying to contact them? I know everytime Andrea is around it seems like she gets a phone call about every 5 minutes. I would suggest to try on facebook. There's a couple of catchwrestling groups were they are active and easy to get in touch with. Write a post in the biggest one with a couple of thousand members and I'll guess you get a reply.

Yeah that's possible, I don't begrudge them for it. I'll try again at some point

 

[cheachea]

Check this out about The Heel Hook. :

"One of the earliest forms of grappling where The Heel Hook can be observed through the culture’s artwork is in Ancient Greece. "

"The popular Pankration and it’s technical advances were transposed to Roman culture, which absorbed a wide range of aspects from Ancient Greek social life."

From : https://www.bjjheroes.com/techniques/heel-hook


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[Kforcer]

Check this out about The Heel Hook. :

"One of the earliest forms of grappling where The Heel Hook can be observed through the culture’s artwork is in Ancient Greece. "

"The popular Pankration and it’s technical advances were transposed to Roman culture, which absorbed a wide range of aspects from Ancient Greek social life."

From : https://www.bjjheroes.com/techniques/heel-hook


.

Yeah, I've seen that carving. That's very interesting. The big question, that is a bit of a mystery, is where the heel-hook came into modern grappling. Its pretty well documented that Ivan Gomes introduced it to the NJPW wrestlers in the 1970's, but where he learned it from and whether or not it was in popular use before that is hazier. Fujiwara said he never saw it before Gomes showed it to him. Karl Gotch said Fujiwara was his top student and Fujiwara took detailed notes on everything Gotch taught him, so it seems like if Gotch was teaching it, Fujiwara of all people would know about it.

Gene LeBell does show it in some of his instructional books, but I'm not sure if those books preceded the time when Gomes introduced the hold to NJPW.

Definitely a cool carving. I love stuff like that. It definitely shows that these holds and moves are almost never, if ever, invented as much as discovered and rediscovered.

 

[Dece]

You're definitely wrong about Koga's role. He had a role with Satoru Sayama and thus with early Shooto through Sayama. Not so with Pancrase, RINGs, the second incarnation of the UWF or the UWF-I, which were major parts of the Japanese catch movement and in fact, bigger parts of it than Shooto was; Shooto was much smaller, perhaps partially by design. The leglock game of Funaki and Suzuki and also of Tamura over in RINGs, was not a product of Koga. Funaki and Suzuki were trained by Fujiwara. Tamura was trained by Billy Robinson, Lou Thesz and Akira Maeda. He did trained at Kiguchi Dojo and he did learn study sambo over there, but that was later in his career and that doesn't erase his earlier training.

I think there's been a misunderstanding here. When I talk about leglock experts having a Koga lineage I talk about the grapplers that were specifically known for leglocks that showed up a bit later. I'm quite sure they all went through Kiguchi dojo. Grapplers like Sato, Imanari and I forgot the name of the first one, another japanese, I think he passed away last year.

I'm not referring to Funaki or anyone else in Pancrase. I do know they had leglock skills and back then you could probably say they were ahead compared to BJJ but I wouldn't call any of them leglock experts. For them leglocks were just part of the basics that they drilled, nobody trained them specifically to become a leglock expert.

As far as the name; Sayama referred to Shooto as "shooting", that's true. Bart Vale referred to what he did as shoot-fighting. But that term was much more widespread in America, via Yori Nakamura and Vale, than in Japan. As I previously stated, Pancrase referred to no-gi grappling as "catch wrestling". Sakuraba referred to what he was doing in the UWF-i as catch-wrestling. Pancrase still to this day calls their no-gi competitions "catch wrestling." The reason they called their competition Pancrase was because that was what Gotch said his style was, "pankration." They took the name from him.

I guess it's different in Japan. Back in my time everything was called Shooto or Shootfighting. Never heard the japanese mention catch wrestling back then.

Addressing Paul Prehn--he demonstrates the figure-four toe-hold, which is exactly the same hold you see Funaki use to submit Bas Rutten in their first fight. And if you read his description, he describes other applications of it which he doesn't show in photographs but are the same sorts of applications you saw guys like Funaki do and what you see all the time today--he referred to "grapevining" the leg. That is actually exactly the move I used to finish the last grappling match I had, about 6 years ago now. And actually, that figure four toe-hold, you don't see it in sambo, it wasn't ubiquitous in BJJ, you never saw it in Japanese jujutsu photographs or drawings that I know of either (you did see the Achilles lock, for example, SK Uyenishi demonstrated it).

Yea, of course I agreed. There are some similarities.

You said, "Nope BJJ took over" but it is absolutely true that guys like Minoru Suzuki rejected BJJ wholeheartedly. Funaki studied it, but Suzuki never embraced it. Funaki criticized Pancrase, after he'd retired, for not studying BJJ more so than they had.

Yea, but Suzuki is an old timer and an exception. Besides he doesn't coach a new generation of grapplers.

Regarding the standing leglock entries--you see some of them in sambo, the rolling kneebar and the flying scissor most commonly. You don't really see the sliding entries that guys like Funaki so often pulled off. You see them more now, though the rules don't make them so easy to execute, but I think that is because of the Japanese influence, not vice versa (I have seen some beautiful Imanari rolls in sambo). But clearly, that was a big part of catch-as-catch-can, whether certain groups today want to say so or not--the broomstick takedown is in some ways a neutered version of a rolling leglock. It is literally a rolling leglock where you pin the man instead of attacking the leglock. And you certainly see them in old-school professional wrestling, though they usually roll into a leg compression rather than a straight ankle or kneebar. But certainly if you can roll into a leglock compression, which is trickier in the first place, you can rolling into an Achilles or a kneebar.

And actually, Karl Gotch said that the first time he was in the Snakepit, someone dropped for a leglock on him from standing and wrenched it. The story is related in the book "Fighting."

Yea, since I've been doing some sessions at the Snake pit I know it. I know Roy teaches the scissor takedown as a counter to a single leg. But I do think in general the standing leglock entries seen in Japan back then reminds me more of Sambo than catch.

I think you might be a bit younger than me, so really, when you say this, I'm not really sure when you are talking about. Yuki Nakai, who started the BJJ movement in Japan, didn't even start training BJJ until he saw Royler Gracie choke out Noboru Asahi. That was 1996. At the time the biggest no-gi competitions in Japan were Combat Wrestling, far and away. They actually drew major crowds and they were difficult for a lot of top BJJ players to win, in fact, Baret Yoshida, whom I love, couldn't make it past the first round..

Nowadays, you don't see the same approach to grappling predominate no-gi Japanese grappling that you once did, but you if you are talking about the guys from the era that most influenced me, those guys were certainly not BJJ'ists and in fact, they were definitely hugely influential on aspects of BJJ, whether its admitted or not. So if you are saying BJJ took over eventually and is predominate now, sure. But if you mean that what the guys out of Kiguchi Dojo, Pancrase, RINGs and ZST was predominately BJJ through the 90's to the early 2000's then absolutely not.

I'm an old guy, 50+. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there's been another misunderstanding here. I'm talking about today, were it seems we both agree.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Yeah, I've seen that carving. That's very interesting. The big question, that is a bit of a mystery, is where the heel-hook came into modern grappling. Its pretty well documented that Ivan Gomes introduced it to the NJPW wrestlers in the 1970's, but where he learned it from and whether or not it was in popular use before that is hazier. Fujiwara said he never saw it before Gomes showed it to him. Karl Gotch said Fujiwara was his top student and Fujiwara took detailed notes on everything Gotch taught him, so it seems like if Gotch was teaching it, Fujiwara of all people would know about it.

Gene LeBell does show it in some of his instructional books, but I'm not sure if those books preceded the time when Gomes introduced the hold to NJPW.

Definitely a cool carving. I love stuff like that. It definitely shows that these holds and moves are almost never, if ever, invented as much as discovered and rediscovered.

Wasn't it through Takeo Yano> Builson Osmar> José Maria Freire lineage? And then, through the Butokukai? https://www.bjjheroes.com/techniques/heel-hook

And talking about CACC, something I didn't read about in those 5 pages was about Orlando Americo da Silva, Dudú.

AND


He taught George Gracie CACC and was then, indirectly, responsible for the first mix of martial arts that spawned BJJ (first that we have proofs at least). George Gracie in the case was the first directly responsible. BJJ is a hybrid martial art, and more, its difference to the sister art Luta Livre Esportiva (or Vale Tudo) is that it kept the exotic name Jiu Jitsu and the Japanese clothes ... that make no sense in Brazil.

Sorry for the Necromancy.

 

[cheachea]

Wasn't it through Takeo Yano> Builson Osmar> José Maria Freire lineage? And then, through the Butokukai? https://www.bjjheroes.com/techniques/heel-hook

And talking about CACC, something I didn't read about in those 5 pages was about Orlando Americo da Silva, Dudú.

AND


He taught George Gracie CACC and was then, indirectly, responsible for the first mix of martial arts that spawned BJJ (first that we have proofs at least). George Gracie in the case was the first directly responsible. BJJ is a hybrid martial art, and more, its difference to the sister art Luta Livre Esportiva (or Vale Tudo) is that it kept the exotic name Jiu Jitsu and the Japanese clothes ... that make no sense in Brazil.

Sorry for the Necromancy.

Interesting.

It's cool to see information about the other Gracies like George, Oswaldo, Gastão etc.

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/george-gracie-facts-and-bio

Also Rolls Gracie :

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/rolls-gracie-profile

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Interesting.

It's cool to see information about the other Gracies like George, Oswaldo, Gastão etc.

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/george-gracie-facts-and-bio

Also Rolls Gracie :

https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/rolls-gracie-profile

Yes. Oswaldo is, if I remember correctly, a direct student of George Gracie. And its line is well and alive in the Brazilian Northeast.

Considering that George himself mixed CACC with BJJ we can say that this photo above confirms Mestre Tatu's influence on BJJ, if there was still something for him to teach, of course.

LOL BJJ is basically Luta Livre for Weeaboos in a way.

 

[Chandler sama]

I'm also interested in where the heelhook came from. Some people have said Ivan Gomes, but Ivan's brother said he learned it from Takeo Yano. Yano was from the Kodokan, but studied some other form is jujitsu prior. He also fought challenge matches and could have learned it from a wrestler. Its a shame there isn't better record keeping because the origin of most moves seems to be a mystery.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Some people have said Ivan Gomes, but Ivan's brother said he learned it from Takeo Yano. Yano was from the Kodokan

Yano was from Butokukai no?

 

[cheachea]

Check this out guys :

Looks like bjjfanatics is getting more Catch material lately.

https://bjjfanatics.com/collections...killer-catch-wrestling-combos-by-erik-paulson

https://bjjfanatics.com/collections...ionship-level-catch-wrestling-by-josh-barnett

 

[Slatersan]

Quentin Rosenzweig just easily tapped the “best catch wrestler” Curran Jacobs. Wasn’t competitive in any way.

 

[cheachea]

Quentin Rosenzweig just easily tapped the “best catch wrestler” Curran Jacobs. Wasn’t competitive in any way.

After watching that match this seems to be the DVD people should watch for tips :

https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/all/products/systematically-attacking-from-open-guard-seated-position-by-gordon-ryan

I do wonder though if it would have gone the same way if they had a rule that said you must get a take down and are not allowed to pull guard / butt scoot.

That seemed like more of a nogi bjj match then a Catch Wrestling match.


.

 

[Slatersan]

After watching that match this seems to be the DVD people should watch for tips :

https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/all/products/systematically-attacking-from-open-guard-seated-position-by-gordon-ryan

I do wonder though if it would have gone the same way if they had a rule that said you must get a take down and are not allowed to pull guard / butt scoot.

That seemed like more of a nogi bjj match then a Catch Wrestling match.


.

To be fair I BELIEVE the match allowed for a 3 second pin as a way to win so it wasn’t all in favor of the bjj guy. Also from how that match went I don’t think getting takedowns would’ve helped Curran that much. The skill difference looked like a black belt vs a “white belt that knows some wrestling”, on the ground.

 

[cheachea]

To be fair I BELIEVE the match allowed for a 3 second pin as a way to win so it wasn’t all in favor of the bjj guy. Also from how that match went I don’t think getting takedowns would’ve helped Curran that much. The skill difference looked like a black belt vs a “white belt that knows some wrestling”, on the ground.

That seated guard is Really challenging to deal with / get past.

It just shows you how effective it is in a pure grappling type of situation.

I do believe Curran will do very well in MMA with his skills in wrestling.


.

 

[Dece]

Quentin Rosenzweig just easily tapped the “best catch wrestler” Curran Jacobs. Wasn’t competitive in any way.

I think it's far fetched to call him the best. You still got the champions over here in the UK. I know US is way better in wrestling but the champions here like Ian Jones are also black belts in BJJ and are being coached at the actual Snake pit. Most of the american wrestlers who comes here usually struggles when the submissions get added.

Currans catch wrestling coach Raul Ramirez is a BJJ white belt who despite claiming to be a five time undefeated catch wrestling champion couldn't win a BJJ comp at white belt. Raul only got a silver last year.

I think the few of those catch wrestlers who thinks that they don't need to crosstrain in BJJ realised now that they have to. I think the match would be way different if they put Quentin against someone like Johnny Buck, who is also a 10p brown belt. Most of us catch wrestlers do crosstrain in BJJ and know how to handle their moves, Curran is the exception.