Social Political correctness vs Islamophobia - is there compatibility of Islamic and Western values?

phoenixikki said:
Their method has not changed. Divide and conquer my friend. Think about the Dems. They want more illegal Latinos coming in not because they are generally more conservative and Catholic but because first they will vote democrat hoping to stay and they will bring more people over.
The same applies to Western Europe.
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Correct but they don't want Cubans as they tend to be conservative or more specifically anti communist.
 
The way things are going, I don't think there's a chance in hell that real Islam can be practised in the West without government interruption.

Obviously they'll allow some sort of Islam to be practised, just so that we can continue to appear as "liberal" societies, living up to our ideals of "religious freedom". But it will be an Islam devoid of most of its core principles.

The people who judge others as "Islamophobic" want nothing to do with Islam as it actually exists in Muslim societies. In fact these people probably constitute the biggest threat to Islam in the West, as they want to shape the religion into their own, "secularized" version which can co-exist with their progressive ideology, an ideology that runs completely contrary to the nature of Islam.
 
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TheGreatA said:
The way things are going, I don't think there's a chance in hell that real Islam can be practised in the West without government interruption.

Obviously they'll allow some sort of Islam to be practised, just so that we can continue to appear as "liberal" societies, living up to our ideals of "religious freedom". But it will be an Islam devoid of most of its core principles.

The people who judge others as "Islamophobic" want nothing to do with Islam as it actually exists in Muslim societies. In fact these people probably constitute the biggest threat to Islam in the West, as they want to shape the religion into their own, "secularized" version which can co-exist with their progressive ideology, an ideology that runs completely contrary to the nature of Islam.
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That's a both sides issue though. Without disagreeing with your statements about progressive interpretations of Islam. The conservative "freedom of religion" crowd really only supports freedom of religion as applied to Christianity. They don't want the practice of Islam either because they see it as in competition with Christianity. Which aligns with what I said earlier about people not wanting other people to have strong beliefs. They'd be fine with Islam if it practitioners were like believers in Hinduism, quiet and keeping it to themselves. Both sides want Islam practiced differently from how it's practiced, even though given the foundational parallels it should fit in neatly with the conservative side of the ledger.
 
panamaican said:
That's a both sides issue though. Without disagreeing with your statements about progressive interpretations of Islam. The conservative "freedom of religion" crowd really only supports freedom of religion as applied to Christianity. They don't want the practice of Islam either because they see it as in competition with Christianity. Which aligns with what I said earlier about people not wanting other people to have strong beliefs. They'd be fine with Islam if it practitioners were like believers in Hinduism, quiet and keeping it to themselves. Both sides want Islam practiced differently from how it's practiced, even though given the foundational parallels it should fit in neatly with the conservative side of the ledger.
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The thing about conservatives though is that they just don't want Islam in the West. They don't have any intention whatsoever of actually "changing" Islam. They just believe that it belongs elsewhere, for the most part. Therefore, as far as Islam itself goes, the conservatives are not really a "threat" to the religion itself, even if they may, to some degree, be a threat to Muslims who want to live in the West.

As far as the existing pockets of Muslims that are already in the West, I doubt the conservatives would give much of a damn about them, if it wasn't for the constant increase of their numbers due to immigration, to the point where you're now almost forced to do something about it. Because obviously, some of the practises within the Muslim neighbourhoods are border-line illegal or atleast highly questionable from Western perspectives, even from a conservative perspective. The idea of a parallel society forming within the society is problematic to any person claiming themselves a patriot. When you look at the statistics and run the numbers, there's no way you can afford to ignore the developments. But again, conservatives for the most part, would prefer not to deal with it, because they have no intention of importing mass numbers of Muslims into the West in the first place. That's a liberal project entirely.

The conservative solution is basically just, that as long as there's minimal immigration from Muslim countries, there are no problems with Islam in the West. Simple and effective, really.
 
This book lays it all out.
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Fundamentalist Christians can barely coexist with modern western values.

Islam makes hard core Christianity seem very progressive in comparison.

The far lefties pushing for multiculturalism with Islam don't really know what they're getting themselves into imo.

These are the same people that march for black America, but will never live amongst black folks by choice. My sister in law is like this. Talks about how much she hates racist conservatives but is fucking terrified of black women after getting beaten in a grocery store parking lot many years ago. She complimented some lady on her hair and the lady along with her friend attacked her. She plays it off like she only sees people as individuals, but you can see her get visibly nervous around black women.
 
It all depends on how fundamental you are. There are a lot of Muslims that simply believe Mohammed was a messenger of God and try to live a good life. Then there are unfortunately a large number that want to live under Sharia Law and for Islam to rule the Earth. The latter is not compatible with Western or free societies.

My hope is as time goes on, Muslims as a whole become less convservative like the Christians have. I want everyone to be free to practice whatever religion they want but I have no tolerance for intolerance and wanting to subjugate the world with your religion or beliefs.
 
Senzo Tanaka said:
My hope is as time goes on, Muslims as a whole become less convservative like the Christians have. I want everyone to be free to practice whatever religion they want but I have no tolerance for intolerance and wanting to subjugate the world with your religion or beliefs.
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In order for that to happen Saudi Arabia will have to lose it's influence of the Muslim world and Mecca will need to be opened up like the tourist attraction that is the Vatican. I want to take a selfie wearing a "there is no god" shirt by the Kaaba while throwing up the double horns. Until doing this wouldn't pose an immediate threat to my life those Muslims begging for acceptance can kiss my ass.
 
it really is insanely complicated and hard to pin down.
I dont think religion should have any impact on a society for the most part and it should remain secular. You should be able to praise and worship and do whatever the fuck you want too without hurting or imposing on others.
You wanna worship some purple flying spaghetti monster in your house or at a church etc? cool go for it.

You wanna tell me that I have to dress like you do, or abide how your religion tells you? fuck outta here

Its no surprsie france is doing what they are doing, but at the same time - its only going to cause extremeists or those marginalized in islam to take a more "us vs them" attitude, so its always going to go around and around.

Lets just crop dust the world in weed smoke and make everyone chill the fuck out. the weak will weed themselves out
 
phoenixikki said:
Islam condemns terrorism and the murder of innocent people, but the most important fact is always left out of the discussion: Jihad isn't "terrorism" and infidels aren't "innocent." Similarly, Islam can condemn rape while leaving out the most important fact: but it's not rape if it's with an infidel. People think that only extremist groups or a small minority in Islam have these opinions, but Rotherham/Sweden/Germany etc show this to be widespread. The apologists think they can continuously side-step it by repeating #NotRealIslam. Governments which adopt Islam as law of the land and interpret their faith as they see fit "doesn't count" apparently.

Lefties see what is right in front of them yet they cannot help but make excuses for it because it contradicts their perception of reality.
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It's pathetic that due fear of accusations of bigotry or racism, the police and social services were to affraid to act and allowed the Rotherham abuse cases to continue so long.
Islam itself has ingrained bigotry towards non-muslims in it's very doctrines and the attitude of disregard toward non-muslims is reflected in their behaviours. This isn't true of all of them but unfortunately it's a large percentage of even those living in Western countries.


panamaican said:
I'm going to largely agree with you though. One of the increasing tenets of Western values these days is a rejection of strong moral/religious beliefs in others. Almost like we've reached a point where we want other people to be hedonistic while insisting that we must have strong moral foundations. Not a perfect description but I think you can get what I'm saying.

Considering the foundational parallels between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Islam should be quite compatible with Western values. But it's not and I suspect the primary reason is because they have very strong convictions about the tenets of their faith while, as you said, Christianity and Judaism have watered theirs down to varying degrees.
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I see what you are saying but I don't agree on the main points.
Firstly, despite being categorized as an Abrahamic religion many of their practices are very foreign to Western culture.
If we get past the fact that there have been centuries of war between Christians and Muslims it is clear that it proscribes various views that would not be acceptable. Yes it is conservative and values family so in that sense aligns with conservative views in someways, but not in many others. For exanple it also adheres to a form of polygamy with a man being able to have 4 wives.

There is the issue of underage girls and the controversy about Muhammad's wife Aisha who is believed to have maybe been 9 years old when the marriage was 'consumated' according to Islamic Hadith sayings. Yes this practice of child marriage was more common in may areas of the world at the time including Europe (although it would still have been after puberty only), but if you are recording in a book from 1500 years ago by the supposedly leading example of the religion and others may be interpreting that as ok, it's a problem.

Then there is the issue that a large percentage do not see non-Muslims as equals at all or worthy of the same rights as reflected in the laws in many Islamic counties, and wish to see Islamic laws in place if they had the chance.
This is what the article I linked discussed, that Islam is best seen as a legislative-religious movement not just as a 'religion'. It specifically goes against the idea of religion as a private affair which is totally against our values and against basic human rights. This is also why they go out of their way to advertise symbols of Islam and they are supposed to make themselves stand out.

I also don't think the issue in the West is people being against anyone having strong convictions. I don't see anyone having an issue with hardcore Buddhists for example.
It's the fact the Islam has legislative ambitions which come with it and tries to impose these in it's followers and the societies where it is allowed take root that put it at odds with the prevailing societies around it.
Talk to some Muslims and you will be able to find some who are campaigning for Sharia law to be applied to them and their communities, it's an inevitable consequence unless the toned down secularized Islam becomes the prevailing version.
 
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TheGreatA said:
The thing about conservatives though is that they just don't want Islam in the West. They don't have any intention whatsoever of actually "changing" Islam. They just believe that it belongs elsewhere, for the most part. Therefore, as far as Islam itself goes, the conservatives are not really a "threat" to the religion itself, even if they may, to some degree, be a threat to Muslims who want to live in the West.

As far as the existing pockets of Muslims that are already in the West, I doubt the conservatives would give much of a damn about them, if it wasn't for the constant increase of their numbers due to immigration, to the point where you're now almost forced to do something about it. Because obviously, some of the practises within the Muslim neighbourhoods are border-line illegal or atleast highly questionable from Western perspectives, even from a conservative perspective. The idea of a parallel society forming within the society is problematic to any person claiming themselves a patriot. When you look at the statistics and run the numbers, there's no way you can afford to ignore the developments. But again, conservatives for the most part, would prefer not to deal with it, because they have no intention of importing mass numbers of Muslims into the West in the first place. That's a liberal project entirely.

The conservative solution is basically just, that as long as there's minimal immigration from Muslim countries, there are no problems with Islam in the West. Simple and effective, really.
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Being somewhat "on the inside" of how American Islam is coming along, I can observe several things going on:

1. Any sort of extremism or terrorism was completely nipped in the bud after 9/11, and the only people who do it now are lone wolves or entrapped by the FBI, normally psychologically marginal people. The terrorism risk was overblown and is basically nil.
2. The parallel society is not forming, instead, masjids are turning into protestant churches, with basketball courts, youth groups, protestant hermeneutics applied to the Koran, 'church' lady councils running everything and congregational organization, which leads to....
3. Liberalization. As the nature of a highly scaled society is allowed to democratically influence an organization, it will inevitably become more individualistic and atomized, leading to Joel Osteen tier personal fulfillment sermons, charitable works, and increasing compliance with monocultural mores. The liberalization is ongoing and quite striking, and only seems to not infect immigrants and a small group of genuinely devout Muslims who increasingly isolate themselves from the broader culture. All the people born here basically have the values of the general culture, with everything that entails. For example, I've witnessed almost monolithic acceptance of homosexuality (which is strictly forbidden) and condemnation and divorces as the result of polygamy (which is allowed), with no apparent thought as to the place these two things have in their divine law.
 
If you're not down with subjugating women, honor killings, and stoning gays, you are Islamophobic.
 
For all the fear Islam, what have they actually done?

You guys act like Islam is invading the middle east, killing millions and hunting down kids with drones

What's even crazier is that you have random people not even from the army entering these countries and killing the local population in the name of "help"

Ridiculous times we live in lol where you can legit carpet bomb a country into the dark ages then claim the moral high ground as well
 
I think very few religions are compatible with progressive western values.
 
Bald1 said:
In order for that to happen Saudi Arabia will have to lose it's influence of the Muslim world and Mecca will need to be opened up like the tourist attraction that is the Vatican. I want to take a selfie wearing a "there is no god" shirt by the Kaaba while throwing up the double horns. Until doing this wouldn't pose an immediate threat to my life those Muslims begging for acceptance can kiss my ass.
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I loled.
 
Most sects of Islam are incompatible with Western values. There's nothing wrong with labeling them as incompatible with Western values and resisting adopting their customs and beliefs. There's nothing wrong with not allowing them to immigrate. They wouldn't let you immigrate there.

Some cultures are just backwards shit culture. We don't need them.

Just to be clear, I didn't care that they follow Allah, Muhammad or what have you. I would be OK with them believing in a lot or silly shit. I care that they are violent, repressive, and strongly against our current values.
 
Political opportunism

Political opportunism refers to the attempt to maintain political support, or to increase political influence possibly in a way which disregards relevant ethical or political principles

This is what social justice really means in practice. It's another victim class to exploit and in many cases has been used to take rights and freedom away in Western countries. New Zealand and Canada being the best examples.

r


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