International Dutch documentary on Saudi Arabia. Pretty good.

[Islam Imamate]

Won't work in the West because we don't have any religous pilgrimmage sites, and even if we did it wouldn't attract Muslims. You could argue that Western ideals can be spread via foreign college students studying here and returning, but that's been going on for decades. The US has been generous in accepting foreign students.

The people I am talking about weren't there for pilgrimage, they were there for work.

 

[MicroBrew]

The people I am talking about weren't there for pilgrimage, they were there for work.

America does allow a lot of foreigners in for work though, the H1B visa bringing in about 65K + per year. There is opposition to the high number of H1B, because it does depress wages and puts Americans out work or discourages Americans from going into certain fields.

And unlike Saudi, foreigners here have a real chance of marrying an American and or getting American citizenship. Saudi and the other GCC countries make it very difficult to become a citizen, excepting a foreign woman married to a Saudi. When I was in the UAE, I recall Muslim and non-Muslim classmates from South Asia all trying to emmigrate to America or Canada or Australia, after highschool graduation. Coming here on a student visa wasn't just for a good education, but to get citizenship. No one wanted to go back to Asia and emmigrating to a Western country was vastly preferable to attempting to secure a work visa to remain in the GCC countries.

Saudi embarked on a process of Saudiazation several years ago, which is a government impetus to replace foreigners with locals. UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman also have similar locals only programs.

 

[MicroBrew]

One narrative is like to flip a bit is the idea that a modern type democracy is inherently western. It’s really about civil protections IMO which is far more fundamental than elected representatives or any arbitrary western values.

It seems to work fine in Japan and South Korea. SK became a real democracy since the late 80s.

Turkey, Lebanon, India, Mongolia and a bunch of other countries are also democracies though obviously democratic values are lacking in some. Still many seem to prefer a broken democracy to no democracy.

 

[thehighking]

Of all countries America should have went to war with after 9/11 it should have been Saudi Arabia. That would never happen though because both are on the same team. More recently America even went ahead with the biggest arms deal of all time to Saudi Arabia when they knew Saudi Arabia was financing ISIS. There is proof of this in Hilary Clinton's leaked emails. America knowingly supplied ISIS with arms and equipment. Why? Because ISIS is used to fight battles that the American public would not condone (such as the war with Syria) and also because ISIS are invaluable in manufacturing a terrorism threat that allows the American regime to justify military action in the Middle East.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yes. I'm big on tit for tat. Right now we only have half of that equation and you've never heard me take exception to Islam in the new world. I don't like it, but it belongs as much as any other ideology.

What about the Old World? Whats the distinction here?

 

[MicroBrew]

Continuing on from where the O.P. left off at around the 17 minute mark.


- Reporter climbs a mountain in Asir province, and mentions that one can hear the sound of mortars and explosions in Yemen, which is only a few dozen miles away.

- He states that Saudi Arabia has carried out 18,000 bombings. He says the nasty thing about the situation is how the people in Saudi Arabia behave as if nothing is happening. In Riyadh, at MBS's 2030 vison presentation, not a word is said about Yemen.

- He goes back and talks with Lina, the Shura Council member, at a sports ground she set up for kids.

- He has her pointblank if the reforms are real or windowdressing, to which she replies she is a big supporter of the social reforms. He then asks her if she would support reforms on human rights. She states they have a human rights committe in the Shura Council.

- He has her about Saudi Arabia's negative human rights situation reported on by media , to which she refuses to answer saying she did not agree to talk about that issue. He states that Lina sticks to the Royal House's official position.

- He asks her if the death penalty needs reform. She answers they do not question god sent laws. She says capital punishment will never change. She says Saudi is a country whose constitution is the Holy Quran and the Prophet Muhammed, which are god sent, so they can not go against it.

- He goes to chop chop square, a most heinous place. Where people are beheaded in front of crowds. Some kids are playing soccer there.

 

[Bald1]

What about the Old World? Whats the distinction here?

You're asking me what's the difference between SA and the US here. Empty reply to a vacuous question. Tit for tat.


Real answer? I'm for keeping distinct societies distinct. That's global diversity. There's plenty of spaces for diversity and a measure of multiculturalism in the former colonies. No reversing that, should I even wish to do so.

So why do you want every place to be a homogenized one except for Islamic ones? I don't know or think that, but the flip side of that question had been the basis of your arguments with me. You think I want the world purified of Islam, so now I'm gonna ask you why you're pro Islamic supremacy? Why you so ISIS? Why do you hate women, Christians, secularist, liberals and atheists?

 

[MicroBrew]

Interesting thanks for the notes. It’s not available in my country.
I wonder how much the quagmire in Yemen has slowed down the changing of the economy?

Are there are proxy server websites in Japan that allow you to post a website link to view the content, without actually purchasing or registering?

 

[Islam Imamate]

You're asking me what's the difference between SA and the US here. Empty reply to a vacuous question. Tit for tat.


Real answer? I'm for keeping distinct societies distinct. That's global diversity. There's plenty of spaces for diversity and a measure of multiculturalism in the former colonies. No reversing that, should I even wish to do so.

So why do you want every place to be a homogenized one except for Islamic ones? I don't know or think that, but the flip side of that question had been the basis of your arguments with me. You think I want the world purified of Islam, so now I'm gonna ask you why you're pro Islamic supremacy? Why you so ISIS? Why do you hate women, Christians, secularist, liberals and atheists?

I never said you want the world purified of Islam, bit of a strawman there. Though I'd hardly be off base in thinking that since you comapred us to cancer, something that most people want the world purified of. I've never compared atheists, women, or Christians to literal cancer.

You have said that you want Europe cut off Muslim immigration and to regulate the lives of its Muslim populations such as their dress and to apply extra scrutiny to their mosques and other institutions. Should they wear a yellow crescent too or is that too far?

 

[Oceanmachine]

I never said you want the world purified of Islam, bit of a strawman there. Though I'd hardly be off base in thinking that since you comapred us to cancer, something that most people want the world purified of. I've never compared atheists, women, or Christians to literal cancer.

You have said that you want Europe cut off Muslim immigration and to regulate the lives of its Muslim populations such as their dress and to apply extra scrutiny to their mosques and other institutions. Should they wear a yellow crescent too or is that too far?

He would love living in China or anywhere in East Asia. I dont think anywhere in Europe will embrace hard secularism and racialism like he wants, maybe Europe upon collapse will but as of now it is embracing soft secularism, and France is trying but there tactics arent that effective. If you really want to water down Islam you do what all the Central Asian countries are still doing since the collapse of the USSR (Monitoring mosques, dress code, banning islamic clothing, ban beards, no beards in government, changing the Quran, outlawing burka, niqab (not opposed to that tbh), arresting anyone who professes ´´radicalism´´. Uzbeks are muslim in the sense they are culturally, and are socially conservative society but like many kazakh muslims it is ties into statism. Turkmens are even more monitored and controlled by their benevolent but strange dictator (his predecessor wrote a book about himself being amazing and strongly encourgaged all citizens to own a copy and gave out changed versons of the Quran) but he was benevolent because he gave everyone free electricity and gas among other things. His requirement was dont speak against the state or you get tortured and go to prison for a time being!

 

[Bald1]

I never said you want the world purified of Islam, bit of a strawman there. Though I'd hardly be off base in thinking that since you comapred us to cancer, something that most people want the world purified of. I've never compared atheists, women, or Christians to literal cancer.

You have said that you want Europe cut off Muslim immigration and to regulate the lives of its Muslim populations such as their dress and to apply extra scrutiny to their mosques and other institutions. Should they wear a yellow crescent too or is that too far?

I called much of the migrants of 2015 lots of bad names. Names they earned. All dogs are mammals but not all mammals are dogs, right? Talk about strawmaning. Why do you hate Christianity? (Sucks, right? Notice I didn't say anything about secularism which you actually do criticize)

I've somewhat softened my stance on Islamic immigration into Europe. Should all of them be turned back? No. There's plenty of Muslims that would be a boon to Europe and want to live in secular societies. What started me off on this conversation is the crazy migrant crisis of 2015 and the loony left support of it. A repeat of that would just lead to conflict. The loony leftists also helped exacerbate the situation in the UK by trying to silence criticism of the state of Islam 8n Europe. The more you tell me to shut up the louder I'll get if there's reason to speak out.

Extra scrutiny is warranted in many cases and you know this. Hell, even the Canadian government has come out and said there's a problem with growing Islamic extremism here along with white supremacy. I personally know Muslims who are getting pressure to grow a beard and become more hardline by members of their Mosques. Should we ignore that?

No yellow crescent Mr Strawman. As I've said ad nauseam, you can hate the ideology but like the person.

 

[Yehudim]

One narrative is like to flip a bit is the idea that a modern type democracy is inherently western. It’s really about civil protections IMO which is far more fundamental than elected representatives or any arbitrary western values.

Well all those things are inherently western, but that doesn’t mean you have to adopt the entire package and bring in trannies, alcohol, and single parenthood to Muslim societies

 

[JSN]

Well all those things are inherently western, but that doesn’t mean you have to adopt the entire package and bring in trannies, alcohol, and single parenthood to Muslim societies

Developed in western societies, but much like planes, cars and electric power grids and such, people shouldn’t view them as only compatible with western cultures, but rather the best way to do things.

I do think that to some extent, a constitution does bring trannies, alcohol, and single parenthood because people have the freedom to pursue those things.

But obviously the basic liberties afforded will vary. We have arbitrary laws prohibiting the use of other drugs here, maybe a country might restrict divorce, or whatever.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I called much of the migrants of 2015 lots of bad names. Names they earned. All dogs are mammals but not all mammals are dogs, right? Talk about strawmaning. Why do you hate Christianity? (Sucks, right?)

Except you've openly said Islam is cancer.

Be honest, if a Muslim dude said Judaism is cancer would you really give him the benefit of the doubt or would you assume he's an anti-Semite? We both know the answer.

I've somewhat softened my stance on Islamic immigration into Europe. Should all of them be turned back? No. There's plenty of Muslims that would be a boon to Europe and want to live in secular societies. What started me off on this conversation is the crazy migrant crisis of 2015 and the loony left support of it. A repeat of that would just lead to conflict. The loony leftists also helped exacerbate the situation in the UK by trying to silence criticism of the state of Islam 8n Europe. The more you tell me to shut up the louder I'll get if there's reason to speak out.

No one supports the migrant crisis, it was a crisis that had to be dealt with. Its probably worth noting that the victims there are the refugees, not people who were called mean names.

Extra scrutiny is warranted in many cases and you know this. Hell, even the Canadian government has come out and said there's a problem with growing Islamic extremism here along with white supremacy. I personally know Muslims who are getting pressure to grow a beard and become more hardline by members of their Mosques. Should we ignore that?

No yellow crescent Mr Strawman. As I've said ad nauseam, you can hate the ideology but like the person.

Growing a beard? The horror!

If hijabis are pressured by non-Muslims or secular Muslims to take it off should that be condemned also? Or is only one side allowed to proselytize their values?

 

[ElKarlo]

Are there are proxy server websites in Japan that allow you to post a website link to view the content, without actually purchasing or registering?

Not anymore. They used to work but YouTube was able to somehow glass them the last couple years. I used to use them and they stopped working probably 4-5 years ago
Sorry man

 

[Bald1]

Except you've openly said Islam is cancer.

Be honest, if a Muslim dude said Judaism is cancer would you really give him the benefit of the doubt or would you assume he's an anti-Semite? We both know the answer.

No one supports the migrant crisis, it was a crisis that had to be dealt with. Its probably worth noting that the victims there are the refugees, not people who were called mean names.

Growing a beard? The horror!

If hijabis are pressured by non-Muslims or secular Muslims to take it off should that be condemned also? Or is only one side allowed to proselytize their values?

So you're Islam? Once again conflating ideology with people. "Conservative cancer of Islam" isn't the same as saying Muslims are cancer, is it? At the same time that quote is closer to what you claimed I said than the usual ones.

Except in the case of Israel has Judaism tried to exert pressure and force their norms on other people? As it stands you know my view on the current MO of Israel, so let's not pretend that country gets a get out of jail free card from me.

The refugees were indeed the victims. That doesn't mean all the migrants who reached Europe were refugees, nor does it mean some European locals didn't end up being victims of the situation. Yet only one side got any mention in western media.

Growing a beard and becoming more hardline. Isn't this partial acknowledgment of a point what you usually bitch about? I don't have much of a problem with hijabs and you know this. If having to pick a side with free choice to wear them or not I'll side with the individuals choice. As far as pressure goes? You know there's quite a bit of difference between how that pressure is applied. Secular Muslims aren't likely to dish out more punishment for wearing a hijab than a hardline family if the daughter refuses. Apples to oranges my dude.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Won't work in the West because we don't have any religous pilgrimmage sites, and even if we did it wouldn't attract Muslims. You could argue that Western ideals can be spread via foreign college students studying here and returning, but that's been going on for decades. The US has been generous in accepting foreign students. Religous identity and zeal is a lot more impactfull to a college education liberalising a person.

Many members of the Shura council graduated from US universities. But, they aren't changing Saudi culture to reflect their time in the US. My guess is because they would lose their social status and power (wasta) if they did once they returned to the kingdom.

 

[MicroBrew]

Many members of the Shura council graduated from US universities. But, they aren't changing Saudi culture to reflect their time in the US. My guess is because they would lose their social status and power (wasta) if they did once they returned to the kingdom.

They may not want to enact progressive changes even if they had the power to, because they agree with the strict conservative ideology and are very nationalistic. We tend to think that foreigners who come and live here for many years will share our humanistic and egalitarian ideals, but this isn't necessarily so. Even those who permanently move to the US can still hold on to prejudices and bigotries from their motherland. Immigrants aren't going to leave their biases at the airport.

 

[Islam Imamate]

So you're Islam? Once again conflating ideology with people. "Conservative cancer of Islam" isn't the same as saying Muslims are cancer, is it? At the same time that quote is closer to what you claimed I said than the usual ones.

When you say the conservative cancer of Islam is spreading, what do you mean? How do you measure the spread of Islam? By the number of Qur'ans and mosques or the number of adherents?

Except in the case of Israel has Judaism tried to exert pressure and force their norms on other people? As it stands you know my view on the current MO of Israel, so let's not pretend that country gets a get out of jail free card from me.

That has nothing to do with my question which you failed to answer. If a Muslim dude said that Judaism is cancer, would you assume he's antisemitic or give him the benefit of the doubt?

Growing a beard and becoming more hardline. Isn't this partial acknowledgment of a point what you usually bitch about? I don't have much of a problem with hijabs and you know this. If having to pick a side with free choice to wear them or not I'll side with the individuals choice.

What does "growing more hardline" even mean? Sorry but knowing your bias here I am not going to accept mere pressure to grow a beard as some path to extremism. Besides that kind of communal pressure is normal even among other communities. You think Orthodox Jews don't experience social stigma from one another when it comes to following their religion? That's the nature of any community bound by morals instead of merely kinship.

As far as pressure goes? You know there's quite a bit of difference between how that pressure is applied. Secular Muslims aren't likely to dish out any punishment for wearing a hijab than a hardline family if the daughter refuses. Apples to oranges my dude.

That's not really true, in Turkey for a long time wearing hijab disqualified one from civil service and from attending university. In the 90s Kurds who dressed religiously and grew their beards out were targeted by the state for disappearance and this is not uncommon in the former USSR territories either. Besides non-Muslims, which I also mentioned, would definitely punish Muslim women who wear hijab. There was that infamous case of the high end restaurant in France where the owners specifically told the staff to deny service to women wearing hijab. We only know of that case because of leaked chats but I doubt its the only establishment like that in France.

And personally I experienced criticism from other Muslims when I grew out my beard and generally started taking my religion more seriously. Of course others were supportive to be fair(mostly older dudes appreciating my beard game). Lots of people in the community are sensitive about coming off like "moderates" so its not uncommon for people to stigmatize those who come off as being "radical" and many expect you to compromise your religion for worldly matters. For instance, lots of parents of would be doctors frequently tell their adult children its okay to skip the fast if they're studying for an exam in med school which is of course ludicrous given the sahaba fasted through battles.

 

[Bald1]

When you say the conservative cancer of Islam is spreading, what do you mean? How do you measure the spread of Islam? By the number of Qur'ans and mosques or the number of adherents?

That has nothing to do with my question which you failed to answer. If a Muslim dude said that Judaism is cancer, would you assume he's antisemitic or give him the benefit of the doubt?

What does "growing more hardline" even mean? Sorry but knowing your bias here I am not going to accept mere pressure to grow a beard as some path to extremism. Besides that kind of communal pressure is normal even among other communities. You think Orthodox Jews don't experience social stigma from one another when it comes to following their religion? That's the nature of any community bound by morals instead of merely kinship.

That's not really true, in Turkey for a long time wearing hijab disqualified one from civil service and from attending university. In the 90s Kurds who dressed religiously and grew their beards out were targeted by the state for disappearance and this is not uncommon in the former USSR territories either. Besides non-Muslims, which I also mentioned, would definitely punish Muslim women who wear hijab. There was that infamous case of the high end restaurant in France where the owners specifically told the staff to deny service to women wearing hijab. We only know of that case because of leaked chats but I doubt its the only establishment like that in France.

And personally I experienced criticism from other Muslims when I grew out my beard and generally started taking my religion more seriously. Of course others were supportive to be fair(mostly older dudes appreciating my beard game). Lots of people in the community are sensitive about coming off like "moderates" so its not uncommon for people to stigmatize those who come off as being "radical" and many expect you to compromise your religion for worldly matters. For instance, lots of parents of would be doctors frequently tell their adult children its okay to skip the fast if they're studying for an exam in med school which is of course ludicrous given the sahaba fasted through battles.

I'm having a beer or two so don't mind if my replies get shorter and less in depth. I mostly skimmed your reply so this won't be an in depth response.


You know my social politics, right? I'm liberal if not affiliated with the current left.

Example of conservative cancer:
- My nieces best friend having to hide their friendship from his (Ahmed) parents until she got married. Why? Because they'd forbid him seeing her.
- My buddy Arbin being pressured to cover his wife up.
- My customer Ina catching shit from the Arab side of her family for working with an infidel without a male family member being present.

Cancer spreads, right? Yes, mine was a crass analogy yet not one without merit. If anything Jews discourage, or at least make it hard to convert. So that would be off the mark. Israel on the other hand is clearly an expansionist country so I'd agree with that.

The rest of your reply? Sure there's outside pressure, but let's not compare the threat of being ostracized from family to strangers giving shit which has no real effect on your life other than being a pain in the ass.