International Australia to Buy Nuclear Attack Submarine from US; France Furious Over Betrayal

[Rand M Arthur]

Fuck 'em. Macron is just getting pissy that he is likely to lose the next election to Le Pen or Barnier.

To be fair one of the biggest issues was reconfiguring French nuclear subs to diesel electric, then we go ask someone else for nuke subs.

But this seems bigger than the contract dispute.

Calling ambassadors is a huge step.

The French weren't willing to share their nuclear know how with Australia, whereS the Britain and America were. From what I've read they even cut Australia into the nuclear research, which leads me to believe these subs are the firat step. Moving the Overton Window, if you will. Despite what Morrison says, a domestic nuclear power industry and even a nuclear arsenal are very much on the table.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

Well New Zealand managed not to piss off the Chinese while still remaining part of the Five Eyes. I think it's just Scott Morrison's megaphone diplomacy doing Australia a disservice. Thin skinned authoritarian governments are always going to react badly to any public criticism. I didn't think Aussies conducted themselves well in how they handled China.

There is talk about removing New Zaeland and inviting Japan ti replace them.

 

[Rand M Arthur]

I'll have to plead ignorance on this whole situation, but why have they only withdrawn their US and Australian ambassadors but left the UK ambassador?

The ruling class of France and Britian are the same families.

Napoleon's great great great grandson lives in London and is married into the aristocracy, for example.

 

[Ruprecht]

Well New Zealand managed not to piss off the Chinese while still remaining part of the Five Eyes. I think it's just Scott Morrison's megaphone diplomacy doing Australia a disservice. Thin skinned authoritarian governments are always going to react badly to any public criticism. I didn't think Aussies conducted themselves well in how they handled China.

New Zealand is significantly more reliant on China and significantly less of a strategic ally of the US.
Going back even to the '90s the strongest negative reactions from China have been a result of our support for the US, and conversely whenever we focused on regional partnerships the response was positive.
Both Morrison and the CCP (typically it's not even Xi Jinping that bothers with their reply) are largely playing to the home crowd with their "diplomacy".
I don't think the rhetoric played a significant role in comparison to actions like the Huawei ban, US base in Darwin and now this on our side. From China it's trade tariffs, action in the South China Sea/Spratly Islands, development loans to our neighbours and less students.
With the failure of Obama's pivot to Asia, it was always going to be a question of the ongoing US strategic response and Australia's role that determined our relationship. Despite the uncertainties of Trump, it was unlikely the US would just leave the region, or that we could form any sort of leverage with our regional agreements. With China's recent actions even those proponents of us distancing ourselves from the US have changed their minds.
I do think this announcement was handled poorly, but I doubt it'll make any real difference to the Chinese response.

 

[CaptHANDSUP]

Well it hasn't been 500 fucking years.

The last thing I want to do is defend the French but Napoleon and Charlemegne existed. And they were also one of the top 3 colonial powers of the entire colonial era.

 

[CaptHANDSUP]

As a former Submariner I’m shocked. Everything that has to do with nuclear engineering has for the most part been held close to the chest for the US. Rickover is probably rolling over in his grave. This is actually concerning that China has become such a problem in the South China Sea that the US is helping other countries build nuclear powered subs.

How far ahead are US nuclear subs, technologically, as compared to other subs around the world would you say? And who is Rickover?

 

[Neph]

I have no problem with us cancelling the French submarine contract - everything I heard about it was bad.

Nonetheless the French are our allies and we should never blindside our friends in this way. If we really didn't say anything until we announced to the world the swap then I think we've done them a disservice.

Their withdrawal of their ambassador is an emotional overreaction and really just makes them look bad.

 

[4daLuLZ]

Not even the public spat over Iraq in 2003 or Trump's presidency had caused France to lose its shit like this. Great job Murica! How's the whole "adults back in the room" thing going?

Aukus: France recalls envoys amid security pact row - BBC News


France recalls its ambassadors to US and Australia in submarine deal backlash (france24.com)

World War 3, they’ll be back, hat in hand, after foreign troops are marching down Champs Élysées……again.

 

[BIKES!]

France ambassadors in the Us should be forced to wobble around on their knees. Their snooty accent wouldn’t exist if not for America. The last time a real country paid any attention to them, the Nazis were marching through Paris. Who gives a shit

 

[Metusalemi]

Scandal after scandal with Biden... America is an embarrassment.

 

[4daLuLZ]

genuine question- you are honestly bothered by the US letting Australia break an agreement with France to buy subs from US that will be better for our strategic interests in the region?

Exactly and the French have always been shitty and massively overrated allies….even to their European brethren.
American strategic interests now lie primarily in the South Pacific (and Eastern Europe to a much smaller extent). What the fk does France have any input or ability in those areas ?

 

[PrinceOfPain]

I think this is more an illustration of Australian lack of foresight being taken advantage of by the UK/US awareness of their very vulnerable position.

It's unfortunate, because it's caused a rift between allies for submarines that the Australians will probably not even be able to field, until they're obsolete anyway.
The Aussies are in a kinda shitty situation, militarily. One almost entirely of their own making, but still.

Very shitty for France, but the Aussies are the dicks here more than the yanks.

 

[CaptHANDSUP]

Even though it's in my state, it's not really an area I spend any time in. The basic idea of SA mining, selling, tracking and disposing of uranium and nuclear waste would of course have been a massive economic boon. I think it was actually native title that nixed that idea, and not too surprising given the history of Brits testing nukes on us at Maralinga and the utter shambles that was the neglect and then belated and botched attempt at yet another clean up effort with vitrification. I believe that waste is still in barrels at Woomera, with reports of some of the barrels stored there already rusting and also requiring yet another cleanup.

What I'm reading now is that all the proposed subs have sealed powertrains which supposedly require no nuclear maintenance for the expected life of the submarine (around 33 years). The nuclear version of the French subs required refueling every decade, and hence a local nuclear industry. So presumably the submarines will be built here with the installation of power plants built in the US or UK. Possibly that will apply to disposal as well.
If so that would certainly minimise any nuclear infrastructure needed outside of whatever's required for safe installation and inspection (I have a sister-in-law who does submarine inspection. You have to be very ok with crawling around in extremely confined spaces for long periods of time).
I'm very interested in what they are planning in terms of the technology sharing, AI and quantum computing that they mentioned.

What are his thoughts on this whole situation with China?

 

[Ruprecht]

What are his thoughts on this whole situation with China?

Whose?

 

[CaptHANDSUP]

Whose?

Your in-law

 

[Ruprecht]

Your in-law

Ah, right. It's my sister in law and you said he. Haven't spoken to her yet about the new sub announcement. Don't think this will effect her work for some time as she inspects the Colins class subs.
Can't say I discuss geopolitics with her though.

 

[Ruprecht]

I have no problem with us cancelling the French submarine contract - everything I heard about it was bad.

Nonetheless the French are our allies and we should never blindside our friends in this way. If we really didn't say anything until we announced to the world the swap then I think we've done them a disservice.

Their withdrawal of their ambassador is an emotional overreaction and really just makes them look bad.

I think the whole EU is feeling a bit left in the dark by this announcement, not that anyone local seems to have been in on it either given the recent agreements made with France. Not the best step in terms of moving away from Trump's unilateralism. Although the CCP rhetoric about setting off a scramble for nuclear subs strikes me as nonsense.

 

[Neph]

I think the whole EU is feeling a bit left in the dark by this announcement, not that anyone local seems to have been in on it either given the recent agreements made with France. Not the best step in terms of moving away from Trump's unilateralism. Although the CCP rhetoric about setting off a scramble for nuclear subs strikes me as nonsense.

To reaffirm - we should have told them first.

However, they should have known they fucked it up.

The original deal was $50B, and it had almost doubled.
DCNS, who was the French partner, were hacked and 22,000 documents relating to their Scorpene submarines were released. These submarines were being built for India.
The French regularly failed to meet project milestones to the point where our Defence Minister refused to meet the French Naval group when they visited Australia.
90% of jobs were contracted to be made locally. This was then reduced to 60%, and then pushed back again by the French.

Basically the fucked it to the amount of tens and tens of billions of dollars and unable to meet milestones. Australia had been openly talking about its disappointment for a long time and the French should not be surprised the pin was pulled.

 

[Anewt]

France ambassadors in the Us should be forced to wobble around on their knees. Their snooty accent wouldn’t exist if not for America. The last time a real country paid any attention to them, the Nazis were marching through Paris. Who gives a shit

The irony of that is usa wouldn't exist without the French...

 

[Factory]

As a German my compassion is very limited. As far as I remember France fought hard against ThyssenKrupp (German company) to get this contract. And let me tell you this, it wasn't very fair either.

Everyone who knows how aggressive and how dirty France acts against other competitors, can't feel bad for them.