International South Africa: Kill the whites!

[Sinister]

You can't compare a profession like the police to an ethnic group and you would likely point that out if the discussion here was about Black Lives Matter vs Blue Lives Matter.

I don't know what SA's High Court has to do with this or what was decided there but I think its irrelevant, calling for ethnic violence is wrong. Surprised that this is a controversial take.

I absolutely can when, again, the song was made in response to social power structures being actively used for racist purposes and still are. The songs are idealistically the same, people are just taking exception because Boers has a literal historical definition of referring to a specific ethnicity...and I'd argue the term "Blue Lives" was even coined to create a similar sentiment. There are no "Blue Lives"...its just a job, people who say that want them regarded equal to what an ethnicity would.

What SA's High Court decided was that singing this song was NOT a call for ethnic violence. So its exactly relevant. This song is not "kill the whites" and it's not even "kill the Afrikaners"...that was decided in Court..

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Racists who want to form ethnostates, who enact apartheid, the people and power structures who this song is about.

The people singing the song want to enact a modern apartheid state.

 

[Cole train]

Man i remember SA 2021 riot thread where chaos ensued and people went after white areas, princeofpain telling how there were shootouts happening all over and he himself was walking around with a gun patrolling neighbourhood.

Crazy stuff

 

[Gutter Chris]

Uh yes, not all Boers are bad simply because historically Boer dominated institutions enforced Apartheid and to this day there is an all white town in SA somewhere. Is that really a controversial take? Don't we agree collective blame is wrong?

See now you're arguing something different and against something that I've never said. Of course conquest involves violence at some level, never denied it and that wasn't your original argument. You were arguing that conquest necessarily includes genocide and ethnic cleansing which couldn't be further from the truth. In some cases a conquest could be the result of a few large field battles where mostly enemy combatants die and where the change in leadership is hardly felt by the average commoner. Total war is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I actually see the problem we are having here clearly now after some re reading. . I didn't use the word genocide but it'sin the post I responded to. I was implying that stealing land , conquest brutality and might makes right is how the world worked until very recently but I am full on aware that conquest and full on genocide aren't always 1 in the same as the remnants of tons of defeated groups still exist. People brutalized each other and claimed their resources for their own across the entire globe. Every group and every race and every continent has this same style of history. The debate we are engaged in seems like hair splitting to me as I'm aware that you know this.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I absolutely can when, again, the song was made in response to social power structures being actively used for racist purposes and still are. The songs are idealistically the same, people are just taking exception because Boers has a literal historical definition of referring to a specific ethnicity...and I'd argue the term "Blue Lives" was even coined to create a similar sentiment. There are no "Blue Lives"...its just a job, people who say that want them regarded equal to what an ethnicity would.

What SA's High Court decided was that singing this song was NOT a call for ethnic violence. So its exactly relevant. This song is not "kill the whites" and it's not even "kill the Afrikaners"...that was decided in Court..

You haven't linked any discussion of that decision so I'm left having to look into it myself and from what I've gathered the SA Supreme Court is set to decide on that still. So even on that point its up in the air.

And anyway the law here is not a great concern for me. Even in the US one can legally say "Kill x ethnic group" and in most circumstances it would be considered protected speech unless it was spoken with an explicit target with the knowledge that imminent, lawless action was likely. Whether or not its protected speech is a related but distinct question from whether or not it promotes violence.

You can argue that in this context "Boer" doesn't refer to the ethnic group even though that is the name for an ethnic group that lives in the society. Even granting that, the song has the subtext of ethnic violence. Songs with far less explicit lyrics are accused of racist subtext so to see the mental gymnastics that some engage in to justify "Kill the Boers" is puzzling to me.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I actually see the problem we are having here clearly now after some re reading. . I didn't use the word genocide but it'sin the post I responded to. I was implying that stealing land , conquest brutality and might makes right is how the world worked until very recently but I am full on aware that conquest and full on genocide aren't always 1 in the same as the remnants of tons of defeated groups still exist. People brutalized each other and claimed their resources for their own across the entire globe. Every group and every race and every continent has this same style of history. The debate we are engaged in seems like hair splitting to me as I'm aware that you know this.

The point you're missing is that in many cases "taking land" simply meant claiming the right to tax said land, not the right to expel the inhabitants and settle the land exclusively with your own ethnic group. That is a very specific kind of conquest that was common in certain European colonies that makes those societies distinct from ones that didn't experience settler-colonialism.

As I said in many cases the average commoner might barely notice the change in leadership after a conquest if they don't live in cities that were under siege or near the site of a field battle.

 

[Gutter Chris]

The point you're missing is that in many cases "taking land" simply meant claiming the right to tax said land, not the right to expel the inhabitants and settle the land exclusively with your own ethnic group. That is a very specific kind of conquest that was common in certain European colonies that makes those societies distinct from ones that didn't experience settler-colonialism.

As I said in many cases the average commoner might barely notice the change in leadership after a conquest if they don't live in cities that were under siege or near the site of a field battle.

What would have happened if they didn't pay them taxes and bend the knee ? How many times has the area around the Mediterranean changed hands? What was going on in Africa pre slave trade? What was going on over here before Columbus. Did I dream up all that violence and brutality in my own head ?

You know that some times it was pay the taxes to this lord and sometimes it was full scale violence but either way its your shits mine or else. A way of life for human beings forever and the point I was trying to make. .

 

[Barteh]

I absolutely can when, again, the song was made in response to social power structures being actively used for racist purposes and still are. The songs are idealistically the same, people are just taking exception because Boers has a literal historical definition of referring to a specific ethnicity...and I'd argue the term "Blue Lives" was even coined to create a similar sentiment. There are no "Blue Lives"...its just a job, people who say that want them regarded equal to what an ethnicity would.

What SA's High Court decided was that singing this song was NOT a call for ethnic violence. So its exactly relevant. This song is not "kill the whites" and it's not even "kill the Afrikaners"...that was decided in Court..

That's a lot of mental gymnastics. The people are openly chanting to kill white farmers and you're jumping through all these hoops to argue that they aren't, why? It's not that complicated.

 

[Islam Imamate]

What would have happened if they didn't pay them taxes and bend the knee ? How many times has the area around the Mediterranean changed hands? What was going on in Africa pre slave trade? What was going on over here before Columbus. Did I dream up all that violence and brutality in my own head ?

You know that some times it was pay the taxes to this lord and sometimes it was full scale violence but either way its your shits mine or else. A way of life for human beings forever and the point I was trying to make. .

The point you're trying to obfuscate here is that settler-colonialism is a unique kind of conquest, mostly done in the modern era by European colonial powers, that creates unique social problems in those societies.

Saying "Everyone does bad things" is a deflection.

 

[Rod1]

They literally made it in Court.

Yeah no shit, because they were facing with inciting hate speech.

 

[58miles]

I don't know how easy it is to leave. I knew a guy who came to Canada from SA in the early-mid 2000s though and he said it was becoming bad for white people even back then. His dad is a doctor though and at the time we had a GP shortage so I guess that made it easier.

Becoming bad for white people in the early-mid 2000's imagine just how bad it was for blacks living under Apartheid.

 

[Sinister]

You haven't linked any discussion of that decision so I'm left having to look into it myself and from what I've gathered the SA Supreme Court is set to decide on that still. So even on that point its up in the air.

And anyway the law here is not a great concern for me. Even in the US one can legally say "Kill x ethnic group" and in most circumstances it would be considered protected speech unless it was spoken with an explicit target with the knowledge that imminent, lawless action was likely. Whether or not its protected speech is a related but distinct question from whether or not it promotes violence.

You can argue that in this context "Boer" doesn't refer to the ethnic group even though that is the name for an ethnic group that lives in the society. Even granting that, the song has the subtext of ethnic violence. Songs with far less explicit lyrics are accused of racist subtext so to see the mental gymnastics that some engage in to justify "Kill the Boers" is puzzling to me.

I already posted this stuff earlier in the thread. Right now the case is pending appeal.

The song was created in response to ethnic violence, and its directed at the power structure that enacted it. Theres no mental gymnastics needed.

"Depending on the interpretation, the song might alternatively refer to institutional structures such as the National Party (NP); or to specific groups of people such as members of the South African Police (colloquially known as Boers) and armed forces during apartheid.[4]"

"Then African National Congress (ANC) secretary-general Gwede Mantashe has stated that interpreting dubul' ibhunu as 'kill the boer, kill the farmer' are perceiving a "vulgarised" version of the song that "incit[es] conflict" and that the song should instead be interpreted in the context of the struggle against apartheid as referring to a system."

"Judge Edwin Molahlehi of the Johannesburg High Court ruled that the chant and song were not intended to be taken seriously; that Afriforium had failed to establish a causal link between the song and violence;[21][22] that the reference to Boer did not literally refer to White or Afrikaans people; that the song did not incite hatred towards White people generally; and ruled the song was not hate speech."

https://mg.co.za/top-six/2022-08-25...-singing-kill-the-boer-ruled-not-hate-speech/

Yeah no shit, because they were facing with inciting hate speech.

And the Court ruled that they were not.

 

[Sinister]

That's a lot of mental gymnastics. The people are openly chanting to kill white farmers and you're jumping through all these hoops to argue that they aren't, why? It's not that complicated.

They are singing an anti-apartheid song. And others here are jumping through hoops to argue that THAT is them hating white people.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

to argue that THAT is them hating white people.

They do, but what can we do

 

[A Very Serious Cat]

They do, but what can we do

It's disgraceful to sherdog one of their mods can troll so shamelessly

 

[58miles]

The people singing the song want to enact a modern apartheid state.

A modern Apartheid state? People keep pretending Apartheid ended hundreds and hundreds of years ago when in reality it only officially ended in the 1990's

 

[Sinister]

They do, but what can we do

They do if you feel "white people" is synonymous with "apartheid power structures."

It's disgraceful to sherdog one of their mods can troll so shamelessly

Citing the actual court case = trolling. Lolz

You are an unserious cat.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I already posted this stuff earlier in the thread. Right now the case is pending appeal.

The song was created in response to ethnic violence, and its directed at the power structure that enacted it. Theres no mental gymnastics needed.

"Depending on the interpretation, the song might alternatively refer to institutional structures such as the National Party (NP); or to specific groups of people such as members of the South African Police (colloquially known as Boers) and armed forces during apartheid.[4]"

"Then African National Congress (ANC) secretary-general Gwede Mantashe has stated that interpreting dubul' ibhunu as 'kill the boer, kill the farmer' are perceiving a "vulgarised" version of the song that "incit[es] conflict" and that the song should instead be interpreted in the context of the struggle against apartheid as referring to a system."

"Judge Edwin Molahlehi of the Johannesburg High Court ruled that the chant and song were not intended to be taken seriously; that Afriforium had failed to establish a causal link between the song and violence;[21][22] that the reference to Boer did not literally refer to White or Afrikaans people; that the song did not incite hatred towards White people generally; and ruled the song was not hate speech."

https://mg.co.za/top-six/2022-08-25...-singing-kill-the-boer-ruled-not-hate-speech/

As I said even if you grant the idea that its an anti-apartheid song where the term "Boer" refers to institutions rather than the ethnic group, its not hard to see how the song is interpreted as having a subtext of ethnic animosity.

 

[Sinister]

As I said even if you grant the idea that its an anti-apartheid song where the term "Boer" refers to institutions rather than the ethnic group, its not hard to see how the song is interpreted as having a subtext of ethnic animosity.

That is the problem of the interpreter, not the singer. Like I said, this very thread is titled to garner a sensational reaction. "KiLl ThE wHiTeS!!"

Once upon a time Dee Snider made this case in front of Congress:



This is not very different than what Malema did in Court

 

[58miles]

I heard rumors that it's not that easy to leave.

Just to let you know
In May 2014, Homecoming Revolution estimated that around 340,000 white South Africans had returned to South Africa in the preceding decade. Furthermore, immigration from Europe has also supplemented the white population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White...lution,also supplemented the white population.