Social Major study finds Gender Affirming Care has no significant effect on suicide rate

[koquerelle]

Why do you think that is? Do you guys know kids who might be potentially using blockers and their parents discussed them with you?

Considering how few kids take blockers and how personal a decision it is, I'm curious how the topic came up with half your friends and family. I've discussed this issue exactly zero times with my family and I have a trans nephew.

Maybe that isn't a fair question. My family has never discussed this kind of issue or pretty much anything in the news, maybe yours is more politically active.

The point behind the question is that in the media, the issue is being framed almost exclusively by the right. Whatever doubts your family has almost certainly comes from conservative media, and they've been 100% against it since the beginning.

I sent you a video a while back about a story that ran wild with conservatives and managed to convince liberals as well. Turns out it was all a lie, but that fact reached a tiny fraction of the original audience. Anti-trans legislation was created on the back of that fake story.

I'm on record having doubts or outright disagreeing with certain trans issues, like competing in sports or sharing bathrooms. I think those issues should be discussed but compromise from the norm has to be handled carefully.

I am less open about interfering with medical procedures and deciding on behalf of doctors and parents. The vast majority of people have been educated on the subject by people who desperately want it to go away.

Ask yourself why you think blockers are dangerous. They've been used for decades, the risks are known and can be managed. Look into the risks and consequences in cold and flu medications for kids, those blow blockers out of the water (they actually kill people). Why aren't parents screaming to ban those?

I talk politics with friends and family very often, except if we're having a party.

My doubts don't come from conservative media. You can go on CNN and other liberal media, and read plenty of stories that raise questions.
-Mom with 3 children. All of them are trans. Mm. What are the odds?
-Transwomen don't have any advantage in sports. Mm. They sure do break many records.
-The I am Jazz show: After having 3 or 4 surgeries leaving her in pain she'll finally be happy. Mm. She looks miserable and is dealing with weight gain, anxiety and depression.

If they lie about that, what else could they lie about? That's when you get to puberty blockers. I don't think they're are dangerous per say. I think many unscrupulous doctors as well as the trans movement lie about them.

"Don't worry. It's like putting your puberty on pause. It's reversible." Mm. Doubts.

 

[Natural Order]

Start what? I just displayed what it is. I'm well past the start. I thought that was clear from my post.

But since apparently not (sigh) compare this image with my AV and note the distance from the top of the image of the horizontal line,

Start understanding photography, lol.

You're literally snapshotting one aspect of the rule of thirds or golden ratio and forgetting about the blatant violation in the center of the photo. It's not aesthetically pleasing at all. It looks like a kid with a cellphone was aiming too high on a family outing. The only saving of that is to zoom in and move it off centre (still holding both principles true).

 

[Levi_]

Derp. You know YOU can stop replying anytime? Oh but then you wouldn't get to fantasize about whatever bizarre shit you're into and incorporate it to this forum. Projecting your oddities onto others...you're one of those I guess.

How about don't reply and just put me on ignore? You realize you have the power to do that, right? Instead, you go with "oMg ur So oBseSSed dood!"

Let's see if you can stop yourself, not reply, and just put me on ignore. Or if you need more attention and just gotta keep going even when you say otherwise.

Who was it that started it? You started it stalking me from other threads and can't let it go. You can put me on ignore.

I don't know why you talk about me being the pervert, you have been stalking me since you started. Then got triggered like a little girl and tried the internet tough guy bit, which shows you were the only one to get excited all along. <45>

 

[mkess101]

Who was it that started it? You started it stalking me from other threads and can't let it go. You can put me on ignore.

I don't know why you talk about me being the pervert, you have been stalking me since you started. Then got triggered like a little girl and tried the internet tough guy bit, which shows you were the only one to get excited all along. <45>

Uhh, yeah genius. I called out your stupidity and I don't give a shit if you reply to me or not. You're the one whining about being in this back and forth and then continuing it.

You're crying about "being stalked"...on a public MMA forum LMAO. I'm fine with you continuing to make yourself look stupid and desperate by replying. I'm also fine if you don't. You don't seem fine at all, what with all the blubbering and shit.

Reply again. Or don't. Head on out to Vegas for UFC 300 (not for the invented fantasy of me fighting you LMAO, but to have fun-hell I'd buy you a drink and shake your hand if you actually showed up). Or don't. But whichever you choose, nobody here is invested in you, kid. Someone poking fun at you on a forum ain't a big deal.

 

[Levi_]

Uhh, yeah genius. I called out your stupidity and I don't give a shit if you reply to me or not. You're the one whining about being in this back and forth and then continuing it.

You're crying about "being stalked"...on a public MMA forum LMAO. I'm fine with you continuing to make yourself look stupid and desperate by replying. I'm also fine if you don't. You don't seem fine at all, what with all the blubbering and shit.

Reply again. Or don't. Head on out to Vegas for UFC 300 (not for the invented fantasy of me fighting you LMAO, but to have fun-hell I'd buy you a drink and shake your hand if you actually showed up). Or don't. But whichever you choose, nobody here is invested in you, kid. Someone poking fun at you on a forum ain't a bug deal.

Crying like a little girl, calling me names, saying 'I'll kick your ass'

The ultimate sign of a triggered guy. Still playing the tough guy? I can always tell a pathetic guy playing tough on the internet. You and how many guns and buddies? Internet threateners are too pathetic.

BTW, the 'wife' you brought up earlier, this is called a victim, not a wife.

 

[mkess101]

Crying like a little girl, calling me names, saying 'I'll kick your ass'

The ultimate sign of a triggered guy. Still playing the tough guy? I can always tell a pathetic guy playing tough on the internet. You and how many guns and buddies? Internet threateners are too pathetic.

BTW, the 'wife' you brought up earlier, this is called a victim, not a wife.

Oh shit, you are actually retarded? Like, for real? Wow, I apologize!

Tell you what, quote me saying "I'll kick your ass" and I'll apologize and say it's all my fault and never make fun of you again. See...the thing is...I never said anything like that. You're literally fabricating shit that never happened. There was never a threat and there isn't one now. LMAO you've invented me wanting to fight you in your own head and then you're calling ME triggered??

Take a breath, it's gonna be fine. Like I said, I'd actually buy you a drink and show respect if you showed up in Vegas for UFC 300. This fantasy of me trying to hurt you or whatever is weird AF dude.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I actually don't totally disagree, because yeah that tends to be part and parcel of herd mentality. Even if you maybe disagree (or partially disagree) with what the loudest of "your group" are saying, you may not root them on but you'll at least not challenge it because there's a kinship or like mindedness in enough other areas that people don't want to rock the boat so to speak.

I said it's not the prominent thought process, ie (like you said) numbers-wise most conservatives don't "hate" trans people or wish them ill will. The agenda can be driven for sure by a vocal minority. I think some of the things framed as "anti trans" are mislabeled as such (biological males competing in women's sports as an example) and are actually pro women but would be framed by the most vocal on the left as bigoted. And few on the left who disagree with that fringe minority (though some will, to be fair) speak up against that extremism either.

I think there's good reason to believe that a significant portion, if not a majority, of conservatives do dislike transgenders. Here's a pew poll that asked whether greater acceptance of transgenders is good or bad

Spoiler: % of Republicans saying greater social acceptance of transgenders is generally good/bad for society

Now you might argue that those who don't support acceptance of transgenders don't necessarily hate them and there might be some truth to that but its hardly a leap to assume that the party that is against greater social acceptance of transgenders might have negative feelings about them.

 

[BearGrounds]

No, voting for policies that ensure single mothers have to work 3 jobs, ensure schools in poor neighborhoods are underfunded and letting corporations control our politics is evil.

You're a mark

This is just an indirect admission that you played along with gender ideology, and deep down feel the shame and guilt, know it was wrong, but can't face what you did.

It will be the same with all of you. We knew it would. You were warned and have no excuses. Own it, coward.

 

[mkess101]

I think there's good reason to believe that a significant portion, if not a majority, of conservatives do dislike transgenders. Here's a pew poll that asked whether greater acceptance of transgenders is good or bad

Spoiler: % of Republicans saying greater social acceptance of transgenders is generally good/bad for society

Now you might argue that those who don't support acceptance of transgenders don't necessarily hate them and there might be some truth to that but its hardly a leap to assume that the party that is against greater social acceptance of transgenders might have negative feelings about them.

Okay but the context of "greater acceptance" has to be quantified. That's a pretty vague question and that discussion has centered around things such as women's sports, required use of pronouns in email sigs, etc. I think it's more reasonable to assume those who want "less acceptance" are pushing back on that stuff rather than "Sally that used to be Steve is going to the after work happy hour? Gross!"

 

[Islam Imamate]

Okay but the context of "greater acceptance" has to be quantified. That's a pretty vague question and that discussion has centered around things such as women's sports, required use of pronouns in email sigs, etc. I think it's more reasonable to assume those who want "less acceptance" are pushing back on that stuff rather than "Sally that used to be Steve is going to the after work happy hour? Gross!"

Well yes I acknowledged that in my post but at the same time its really far from a stretch to assume there's overlap between "social acceptance of transgenders is bad" and "I dislike transgenders"

You don't really think that it'd be a leap to assume that being against their acceptance would correlate with negative attitudes about them right?

 

[mkess101]

Well yes I acknowledged that in my post but at the same time its really far from a stretch to assume there's overlap between "social acceptance of transgenders is bad" and "I dislike transgenders"

You don't really think that it'd be a leap to assume that being against their acceptance would correlate with negative attitudes about them right?

No I'm sure there's a % that just "don't like them" or whatever. What that even means in terms of specifics IDK honestly. Like, it's an abnormalmality. Probably makes some people uncomfortable. "Dislike" seems kinda loaded, but maybe I'm overthinking the wording.

I lean right for sure. If you asked me about social acceptance of trans people I'd need it qualified. Should they be allowed to live as they choose, opposite their biology? Absolutely, but that doesn't include rewiring all of society to cater to it. Biological 18 yr old males shouldn't be allowed into the female showers at a high school for example.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No I'm sure there's a % that just "don't like them" or whatever. What that even means in terms of specifics IDK honestly. Like, it's an abnormalmality. Probably makes some people uncomfortable. "Dislike" seems kinda loaded, but maybe I'm overthinking the wording.

I lean right for sure. If you asked me about social acceptance of trans people I'd need it qualified. Should they be allowed to live as they choose, opposite their biology? Absolutely, but that doesn't include rewiring all of society to cater to it. Biological 18 yr old males shouldn't be allowed into the female showers at a high school for example.

Uh sure but the core point is that there are lots of negative attitudes about queers on the right so attacking Loiosh as if he's so off base for pointing that out seems odd to me.

Be honest, if you were to scroll through the average War Room thread on transgenders would you expect to see harsh attitudes expressed about them? And if you did do you think they'd be more likely to come from the right or left?

 

[Poatan Power]

I think there's good reason to believe that a significant portion, if not a majority, of conservatives do dislike transgenders. Here's a pew poll that asked whether greater acceptance of transgenders is good or bad

Spoiler: % of Republicans saying greater social acceptance of transgenders is generally good/bad for society

Now you might argue that those who don't support acceptance of transgenders don't necessarily hate them and there might be some truth to that but its hardly a leap to assume that the party that is against greater social acceptance of transgenders might have negative feelings about them.

I think it's totally acceptable and reasonable to presume that rightists have a, on average, more negative opinion on trans people than leftists. If you can't accept that as obvious truth I think your entire position is subverted.

I'm fairly "anti-trans" (see: i don't support hormonal therapy or surgical intervention for minors nor the introduction of gender theories in pre-7th grade studies) and even I will readily admit those who share some of my views are almost entirely rightists or center left parents.

 

[mkess101]

Uh sure but the core point is that there are lots of negative attitudes about queers on the right so attacking Loiosh as if he's so off base for pointing that out seems odd to me.

Be honest, if you were to scroll through the average War Room thread on transgenders would you expect to see harsh attitudes expressed about them? And if you did do you think they'd be more likely to come from the right or left?

First for the record, I think Loiosh is probably a good person and don't "attack" him like many here do. I think he's very misguided on this topic to be sure, but I don't think what I did was "an attack". And the only reason I commented at all was because he both painted all conservatives with the same brush (didn't say "many" or "most", just "conservatives") and also used the most inflammatory language possible ("hate trans people"). He then went on to add that conservative parents are just "worried their own kid will be gay or trans". If you think comments like that don't deserve any rebuttal, not sure what to tell ya. I very much disagree.

WR threads about trans people, for sure the attitudes from the right are negative but it's not specifically about the existence of trans people. They've always existed. It's about the societal overcorrection that puts inclusivity and the race to "be an ally" above all else.

 

[BigDeadFreak]

I think a lot of people on the left should look into Chesterton's Fence as a way of understanding right wing attitudes towards the trans issue.

Chesterton Fence: Don’t Destroy What You Don’t Understand! - Sprouts - Learning Videos - Social Sciences

Chesterton’s Fence is a simple rule of thumb that suggests you should never destroy a fence, change a rule, or alter a tradition if you do not understand why it was created in the first place. China’s Four Pests Campaign during the Great Leap Forward shows the tragic consequences of meddling...

sproutsschools.com

The changes to society, the bodies of children and the way we understand men and women (amongst other things) being proposed by trans activists are a radical departure from what were almost universal norms until a few years ago.

The idea that the only motivation conservatives have for questioning or opposing these changes are that they are a bunch of evil bigots is ridiculous.

When conservatives dare to ask questions on any trans related issue they are screamed at, sacked from their jobs or ousted from various communities. This doesn't exactly help the trans cause; it makes it look like they have something to hide. In many cases (Tavistock, the effects of puberty blockers, surgery on minors, etc.) that does actually turn out to be the case.

It's interesting that most left wing forums won't even allow open discussion of this topic. Either there is no thread at all or it will be so heavily moderated as to exclude all critical discussion. For example, ResetEra.

Conservative being reluctant to accept trans people could be because they hate them. But, it could be because of the myriad legitimate concerns and unanswered questions that the issue poses.

 

[I Am Legion]

I work with Trans Women. 3 of them, and I like all 3. But not one is healthy mentally. All suffer from depression. 2 have partial transformations....breast implants, hormones, adams apple shaved. One is a Comedienne as a side gig and her voice never really came back. One had the full monty. 2 of them chose to leave their families to do these, including kids. Not one actually looks like a woman. They are larger men to start with. I am starting to wonder how much of this is trauma related, because all had history of abuse as children. I just know myself---I would rather live sad than leave my kids. I wouldn't embarrass them like that.

 

[The_Renaissance]

I work with Trans Women. 3 of them, and I like all 3. But not one is healthy mentally. All suffer from depression. 2 have partial transformations....breast implants, hormones, adams apple shaved. One is a Comedienne as a side gig and her voice never really came back. One had the full monty. 2 of them chose to leave their families to do these, including kids. Not one actually looks like a woman. They are larger men to start with. I am starting to wonder how much of this is trauma related, because all had history of abuse as children. I just know myself---I would rather live sad than leave my kids. I wouldn't embarrass them like that.

Some trauma victims create an alternative personality / split personality to try and cope with it. That's essentially what this is, it's an extreme form of coping mechanism. It's suicide without actually committing suicide - an attempt to leave a damaging past behind. It's why 'deadnaming' is such a big offense to them - in their minds, that person is dead, they are no longer here.

 

[kflo]

I work with Trans Women. 3 of them, and I like all 3. But not one is healthy mentally. All suffer from depression. 2 have partial transformations....breast implants, hormones, adams apple shaved. One is a Comedienne as a side gig and her voice never really came back. One had the full monty. 2 of them chose to leave their families to do these, including kids. Not one actually looks like a woman. They are larger men to start with. I am starting to wonder how much of this is trauma related, because all had history of abuse as children. I just know myself---I would rather live sad than leave my kids. I wouldn't embarrass them like that.

surely one can see how traumatic it could be for an individual with gender dysphoria to approach and go through puberty knowing that they will forever exhibit the characteristics of the gender they (believe they) wish to leave behind. not saying these individuals would have wanted this, more a general comment.

many anti-trans people will mock the appearance of trans people while denying an option that could enable their appearance to better match their gender.

again, it should not be the norm, but it shouldn't be prohibited, imo. and we should continue to study the long term effects of course.

 

[PhitePhan]

again, it should not be the norm, but it shouldn't be prohibited, imo. and we should continue to study the long term effects of course.

“Safe, legal and rare.”

 

[Poatan Power]

surely one can see how traumatic it could be for an individual with gender dysphoria to approach and go through puberty knowing that they will forever exhibit the characteristics of the gender they (believe they) wish to leave behind. not saying these individuals would have wanted this, more a general comment.

many anti-trans people will mock the appearance of trans people while denying an option that could enable their appearance to better match their gender.

again, it should not be the norm, but it shouldn't be prohibited, imo. and we should continue to study the long term effects of course.

It should be prohibited in children, imo. This bullshit that kids barely old enough to work with decimals and fractions should be given hormone blockers / exogenous hormone therapy to "affirm" their gender on top of surgeries that permanently disfigure (or "refigure") them is quackery and extremely high risk for the "do no harm" field.

All that being said, I think it is low character to mock trans people for how they look, but I feel that way in general about everyone. Trans people should not be held above reproach or to a higher standard of protection from mockery as oppose to, let's say, the mockery that white deep southerners face about being incestual half wits. People should just not be assholes to other people for the sake of it. Part of that problem, is, though -- the trans community is on the offensive so it puts anti-trans people on the offensive. You get a pretty harsh response when you want to make sure other people's children know about your gender, sexuality, etc. and it's going to be very visceral.

As far as adults go, trans it up. I'm all for it. Do your thing. Just don't expect me to let you teach my 6 year old about it. You get the same constitutional protections as everyone else, not more, not less.

I find it odd, fwiw, that it is so much more prevalent (about 3x) in "cis males" than "cis females." Much like suicide and almost every mental health issue.