Opinion Famous Robert E Lee monument in Charlottesville finally taken down

[Old Cat]

Churchill was a racist imperialist even by the standards of his day so even judging him according to the standards of the time he does not fare well.

It make perfect sense to paint a man’s entire life w the broad brush of racist on the cursory evidence of a few indiscretions, particularly when that same man wrote prolifically. It so modern of you to sum up a man’s life in two words. Bravo !

 

[Islam Imamate]

This also completely ignores why the North fought; their theory was that the Union was indissolvable and the South had no right to leave. The occupation and disenfranchisement really strained that idea as it actually happened; its hard to see how it could be sustained if multiple states were disenfranchised and under occupation for multiple decades.

This also ignores the political tension in the north- the northern Democrats wanted those votes back. In a representative system, how long can you maintain the political will to do this?

I understand why it happened but given hindsight I wish the North had pushed their advantage more and nipped some of the racist institutions of the South in the bud. I'm not coming at this from the perspective of other leftists who have this deep hatred of the South for partisan reasons, if anything I am more sympathetic to rebel culture than I am to Yankee culture. Its really just their view of the "black question" that I differ intensely on and its that issue which ultimately had ramifications for us today.

It make perfect sense to paint a man’s entire life w the broad brush of racist on the cursory evidence of a few indiscretions, particularly when that same man wrote prolifically. It so modern of you to sum up a man’s life in two words. Bravo !

Oh he was of course many other things, some of which are indeed very admirable. But your point was that we should judge these characters given the standards of their day and even by those standards Churchill falls short. Even Lee fares better when graded on a similar curve.

 

[Old Cat]

Oh he was of course many other things, some of which are indeed very admirable. But your point was that we should judge these characters given the standards of their day and even by those standards Churchill falls short. Even Lee fares better when graded on a similar curve.

This certainly applies to Churchill, some of accusations leveled against him have much to do with the parlance of the day. His action with respect to segregated US troops and his stance related to South African, to name a few, are far more telling by a fair minded eye.

At least you backed off the “Lee was a racist” quip.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This certainly applies to Churchill, some of accusations leveled against him have much to do with the parlance of the day. His action with respect to segregated US troops and his stance related to South African, to name a few, are far more telling by a fair minded eye.

His actions and comments in regards to Indians and other colonized peoples tells a very different story than the one you're painting here. Again even by the standards of his time he was loathsome in that regard.

At least you backed off the “Lee was a racist” quip.

Lmao, what? I did no such thing because Lee was in fact a racist even by the standards of his time, its just that there were others who were even more racist. Lee didn't want the blacks to get the vote but at least he thought they should have access to education, others in his time and place wouldn't even make that small step.

 

[MicroBrew]

It make perfect sense to paint a man’s entire life w the broad brush of racist on the cursory evidence of a few indiscretions, particularly when that same man wrote prolifically. It so modern of you to sum up a man’s life in two words. Bravo !

If what Churchill did was " a few indiscretions" then we can say the same for high level Nazis. The hypocrisy of the Western establishment and Churchill apologists is laid bare when they condemn the Nazis but give British imperialism and people like Churchill a pass.

 

[Old Cat]

If what Churchill did was " a few indiscretions" then we can say the same for high level Nazis. The hypocrisy of the Western establishment and Churchill apologists is laid bare when they condemn the Nazis but give British imperialism and people like Churchill a pass.

Ohh my. Linking of few of Churchill’s poorly chosen words and w the Nazis and Britain’s imperialism is ridiculous stretch. This is part and parcel w my original point. There are those who, at all cost to the truth and what is fair, look under every piece of cloth for a single wart, only to malign a mans character while completely disregarding the sum total of their life spent. Thankfully there is still a majority who don’t, and will fight this drivel with our last breath. Freedom wins my friend, I’ve read the end.

I have no interest in going back a forth. Cheers

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ohh my. Linking of few of Churchill’s poorly chosen words and w the Nazis and Britain’s imperialism is ridiculous stretch. This is part and parcel w my original point. There are those who, at all cost to the truth and what is fair, look under every piece of cloth for a single wart, only to malign a mans character while completely disregarding the sum total of their life spent. Thankfully there is still a majority who don’t, and will fight this drivel with our last breath. Freedom wins my friend, I’ve read the end.

I have no interest in going back a forth. Cheers

Uh, Churchill wasn't some random guy my dude. He was the Prime Minister of the British Empire so yes it makes perfect sense to blame him for imperial policy under his watch like that which contributed to the Bengal Famine where over 3 million Indians starved.

 

[JadeOwl]

Afghans would've hanged Robert E. Lee by the balls.
There were no drones or airstrikes in the 19th century.

Isn’t it the general historical consensus that Lee was a very good tactician, but a dismal strategist?

He would’ve failed even harder in Afganistan.

 

[JadeOwl]

The south had to right to secede if the US was truly a republic and not a dictatorship.

By that standard there are no republics in the world.

I don’t know of any country on Earth that will let a subnational entity secede just because they didn’t like the result of an election.

 

[Denter]

By that standard there are no republics in the world.

I don’t know of any country on Earth that will let a subnational entity secede just because they didn’t like the result of an election.

Obviously they did not have that right, and yes, Lincoln was a dictator, and we should be grateful that he was- otherwise the union would not have held together.

I guess what I am getting at about the comments re: the confederacy is that they are anachronistic; they assume that northern soldiers were solid abolitionists and anti-racists, that northern politicians and generals uniformly viewed the southern politicians and generals as traitors; they assume that the north even wanted to rule the south like a foreign occupier for "racial justice". None of these things are true, and they deeply misunderstand the climate that led to the Civil War in the first place.

I'll never forget reading Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.'s biography, and how he and his men by 1863 blamed abolitionists for the war, and hated and cursed them regularly. Northern soldiers ran the gamut from extreme racists (think the Wilmot Proviso- free soil types) to racial egalitarians, and everything in between. There was no consensus of what to do, except free the slaves so this wouldn't happen again.

 

[Loiosh]

will fight this drivel with our last breath.

I have no interest in going back a forth. Cheers

 

[MicroBrew]

Ohh my. Linking of few of Churchill’s poorly chosen words and w the Nazis and Britain’s imperialism is ridiculous stretch. This is part and parcel w my original point. There are those who, at all cost to the truth and what is fair, look under every piece of cloth for a single wart, only to malign a mans character while completely disregarding the sum total of their life spent. Thankfully there is still a majority who don’t, and will fight this drivel with our last breath. Freedom wins my friend, I’ve read the end.

I have no interest in going back a forth. Cheers

It is a ball faced lie to dismiss Churchill as simply uttering a few words. His actions greatly contributed to the famine in Bengal.

He deservers to be maligned, because he was a total POS. The only reason he isn't maligned is because the Western establishment won the war and continuted to stay in power. Another reason is that Churchill harmed non Europeans while the Nazis harmed mostly Europeans.

 

[Old Cat]

not bad. Even if the context is misplaced.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Obviously they did not have that right, and yes, Lincoln was a dictator, and we should be grateful that he was- otherwise the union would not have held together.

I guess what I am getting at about the comments re: the confederacy is that they are anachronistic; they assume that northern soldiers were solid abolitionists and anti-racists, that northern politicians and generals uniformly viewed the southern politicians and generals as traitors; they assume that the north even wanted to rule the south like a foreign occupier for "racial justice". None of these things are true, and they deeply misunderstand the climate that led to the Civil War in the first place.

I'll never forget reading Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.'s biography, and how he and his men by 1863 blamed abolitionists for the war, and hated and cursed them regularly. Northern soldiers ran the gamut from extreme racists (think the Wilmot Proviso- free soil types) to racial egalitarians, and everything in between. There was no consensus of what to do, except free the slaves so this wouldn't happen again.

In one of the early episodes of a show called Hell on Wheels there's an interesting interaction between a former Confederate soldier who freed his slaves a year before the war and a former Union soldier who blamed the whole thing on blacks. Thought it was an interesting reversal of how we usually frame such characters.

In fact part of the mythos of Lee himself has to do with his complicated motivations; he was against secession but as a Virginian felt duty bound to fight for his home state.

So yeah your point about how we frame discussions around the Civil War in an anachronistic way is spot on. I just wish some Northern elites pushed Emancipation a little further such that the Civil Rights Movement wouldn't even have had to happen. Because as necessary as the CRM was, it was sort of a death knell of the old Anglo-Protestant culture that once acted as the foundation of US public life. As great as that old WASP cultural establishment was, its original sin of slavery and racism became its undoing. At least that's how I see it.