GSP's wrestling now that the Caucasians have taken over?

[Madmick]

GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?

GSP fought in a time when wrestlers made up like 70% of the top ranks, and nobody cared that much about diversifying. They committed to their primary discipline.

The Dagestanis & Chechens are good, no doubt, but one of the reasons they've had so much success with their wrestling is because everyone in North America evolved to cope with the vanguard of the sport, and that entailed being an all-around fighter, specifically a kickboxer with a focus on takedown/submission defense who spends a lot of time working above-waist wrestling against the cage. This is the Rochambeau effect of MMA (which exists in all professional sport).

At the highest level, the strategies and skillsets evolve so finely they eventually grow into a niche where only someone who hasn't evolved within that niche can come in and benefit by undermining its lack of balance by returning to the basics. But then that will be countered as the athletes adapt to this disruption. The well-rounded kickboxing style I described above was getting a bit lean on wrestling defense against truly elite wrestling, and the Russians have exploited that, but as fighters adapt, to neutralize the offensive potential of wrestling, you'll see a repeat of what we learned before; that it's ultimately easier to neutralize the offense of elite grapplers than it is to neutralize the offense of elite strikers.

To analogize this to American football, think of grappling as the run game. It dominated early. It's still necessary, and always will be. You can't hope to pass relentlessly and without the defense shutting you down if you can't keep them honest by running the ball. But, at some point, someone figured out the "forward lateral", and later, this was developed with sophistication into the West Coast offense. Today, pass-dominant offenses still dominate football. This is like those strikers who work very hard on wrestling and submission defense. They got too careless, too loose, too weak with their own run game and their own run defense...but if you think the pass is going away as the predominant weapon in American football, I've got bad news for you.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Hendricks didn't bully GSP in the grappling. You're being hyperbolic. And Hendricks isn't just some D1 wrestler -- The guy was one of the best Collegiate wrestlers that the UFC has ever seen. Neither khabib nor islam have faced a wrestler of that caliber in the UFC.

He won TWO national championships in a country with many of the best wrestlers in the world. But I guess GSP was a scrub because he got taken down by him.

 

[Dan Torrance]

What's crazy is his background is actually Karate. Never had high school/collegiate wrestling experience, and never wrestled until he started MMA. Meanwhile, this wrestling skill of his is being compared to the guys of today who have been doing it since they were like 4. I think that's just something worth pointing out. It reflects his pure talent and skill, and the work he's put in on how fast he learned to reach a certain level though he didn't started at a very young age. If his MMA wrestling has been widely considered as one of the best for years, could you imagine if he started doing it when he was a kid?

I actually think it's because he wasn't wrestling since 4, or has the benchmark moved to age 3? That he was able to implement it the way he was able to. He added double leg take downs to Karate, and it's from Karate that he learned his timing base that made his wrestling so effective.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

The United States ended up with 9 medals in the last Olympics, and by normal rankings came in 3rd behind ROC and Japan. By any rankings they came ahead of any of the Caucus nations. So why do you think American wrestling is inferior?

Other than that, the transition between pure wrestling and MMA has never been automatic. Quite a few Olympic gold medalists have failed in MMA.

How good was GSP's wrestling compared to today? Impossible to tell without a time machine. How good is American wrestling compared to the Caucus countries? At least as good and arguably better going by Olympic and world championship results.

You realize the USA has a population of like 350 million? Dagestan and Chechnya combined might have one tenth of that, and both are part of the Russian Federation.

So uh...tf you talking about?

 

[TempleoftheDog]

The fact GSP had zero wrestling training.. Let alone a lifelong in wrestling really says it all. The guy came from a Karate background to being a man considered the best mma wrestler of all time. The context in the sentences I just wrote can never be overlooked. His opponents were always top notch. And many of them had stellar records before fighting GSP.

 

[Iron Nick]

Good post, but I wonder how much this was a product of not needing to chain wrestle. Because his timing and explosiveness was so strong. Those other guys need to chain wrestle. GSP rarely got stuffed in the first place.

True, yeah.
I guess we can assume his chain wrestling was very good as well, i just wouldn't safely assume that it was as good as Khabib's or Islam's, as that'd be a bit unfair, in my opinion.

 

[Ogata]

What's crazy is his background is actually Karate. Never had high school/collegiate wrestling experience, and never wrestled until he started MMA. Meanwhile, this wrestling skill of his is being compared to the guys of today who have been doing it since they were like 4. I think that's just something worth pointing out. It reflects his pure talent and skill, and the work he's put in on how fast he learned to reach a certain level though he didn't started at a very young age. If his MMA wrestling has been widely considered as one of the best for years, could you imagine if he started doing it when he was a kid?

Is it possible that he may have gotten burnt out if he was a wrestler from the start?

Lets say in an alternate universe, GSP started off as a wrestler and then became obsessed with Karate/Kickboxing?

In the alternate universe he would have been GOAT striker maybe?

 

[fortheo]

The main difference I see between American D-1 wrestlers and Eastern wrestling is chain wrestling. They don't just shoot once but come at you relentlessly. Think GSP's blast double vs. Khabib low single / angle pick that usually fails but then seamlessly transitions to multiple TDs until he eventually gets you down.

Aside from traditional wrestling takedowns, they also employ TDs from judo and Sambo. Lots of trips and throws. You can see the judo influence in Khabib's game but guys like Islam and Petr Yan utilize judo throws even more extensively. Ditto for Fedor.

Personally, I love the judo style takedowns. Not only are they more elegant than your traditional wrestling single/double legs but more efficient because they require less energy.

Lots of americans chain wrestle. Frankie in his prime was good at it, Askren made a career off of it, Weidman was good at it, prime maia made a living off his single leg chain series, etc etc. The issue is, as others have mentioned, good mat grappling has somewhat fallen out of fashion in MMA these days in preference of strong tdd and striking. These caucus guys are just reminding us of what we already knew ten plus years ago.

This sums the situation up better than I could:

GSP fought in a time when wrestlers made up like 70% of the top ranks, and nobody cared that much about diversifying. They committed to their primary discipline.

The Dagestanis & Chechens are good, no doubt, but one of the reasons they've had so much success with their wrestling is because everyone in North America evolved to cope with the vanguard of the sport, and that entailed being an all-around fighter, specifically a kickboxer with a focus on takedown/submission defense who spends a lot of time working above-waist wrestling against the cage. This is the Rochambeau effect of MMA (which exists in all professional sport).

At the highest level, the strategies and skillsets evolve so finely they eventually grow into a niche where only someone who hasn't evolved within that niche can come in and benefit by undermining its lack of balance by returning to the basics. But then that will be countered as the athletes adapt to this disruption. The well-rounded kickboxing style I described above was getting a bit lean on wrestling defense against truly elite wrestling, and the Russians have exploited that, but as fighters adapt, to neutralize the offensive potential of wrestling, you'll see a repeat of what we learned before; that it's ultimately easier to neutralize the offense of elite grapplers than it is to neutralize the offense of elite strikers.

To analogize this to American football, think of grappling as the run game. It dominated early. It's still necessary, and always will be. You can't hope to pass relentlessly and without the defense shutting you down if you can't keep them honest by running the ball. But, at some point, someone figured out the "forward lateral", and later, this was developed with sophistication into the West Coast offense. Today, pass-dominant offenses still dominate football. This is like those strikers who work very hard on wrestling and submission defense. They got too careless, too loose, too weak with their own run game and their own run defense...but if you think the pass is going away as the predominant weapon in American football, I've got bad news for you.

 

[Frank Edgar]

I don't think GSP is the greatest wrestler in MMA history, I think he's the greatest fighter who incorporated wrestling heavily into his style (when he entered his prime)

Yes he outwrestled a bunch of wrestlers, but most of those wrestlers had a considerable technical striking disadvantage against GSP, and I think in many ways it was the opposite of a striker getting outstruck by a wrestler because he's scared of the takedown

GSP is IMO the most well-rounded fighter ever but he was never the best pure striker or the best pure wrestler

 

[fortheo]

It doesn’t matter about his wrestling credentials if he doesnt use the skills in MMA. It’s the same with Romero, highly decorated wrestler, but he should not be considered an elite MMA wrestler. These guys want to be KO artist.

The Dagastanis WANT to wrestle their opponents in the cage, both sides know what’s coming. It’s a different mindset.

Are you suggesting that johnny hendricks, a guy who averaged over 1 takedown per round throughout his UFC career, and won the world title by wrestling Lawler, didn't use his wrestling?

 

[Noraaq]

Are you suggesting that johnny hendricks, a guy who averaged over 1 takedown per round throughout his UFC career, and won the world title by wrestling Lawler, didn't use his wrestling?

Hendricks/Lawler was fought 99% of the fight on the feet with some half assed TD attempts from Hendricks to mix it up. Strange fight to reference when were discuissing elite MMA wrestling.

MMA 'wrestling' has evolved, its not just about the TD and then sitting in guard until your opponent gets back to their feet. These Dagestani guys are relentless in top position, passing guard, going for submissions, dishing out GnP.

How many finishes from top position does Hendricks have? genuinely curious here

 

[fortheo]

Hendricks/Lawler was fought 99% of the fight on the feet with some half assed TD attempts from Hendricks to mix it up. Strange fight to reference when were discuissing elite MMA wrestling.

MMA 'wrestling' has evolved, its not just about the TD and then sitting in guard until your opponent gets back to their feet. These Dagestani guys are relentless in top position, passing guard, going for submissions, dishing out GnP.

How many finishes from top position does Hendricks have? genuinely curious here

You're making a completely different argument. I was never comparing hendricks to dagestani guys; I was comparing hendricks to their competition

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think really GSP's big talent was his ability to time his shots, the way he worked it into his standup to the degree he could catch someone coming forward.

The two best ever at that for me remain GSP and Arona.

I agree with this, in a way GSP'a wrestling was overrated. His "wrestling" basically consists of the kind of takedowns that every BJJ guy learns(double, singles, few upper body takedowns). Difference is unlike most BJJ guys GSP actually mastered those takedowns instead of mastering guard pulls and butt scoots.

But GSP rarely used wrestling positions like rides or the front headlocks and stuff like that. Once it hit the mat he was a BJJ player and one of the GOAT in MMA history.

 

[cmw43]

Khamzat beat a D1 wrestler in the first round by taking him down on his first attempt and pounding him out. I remember GSP having long drawn-out fights with his D1 wrestlers.

Khamzat hasn't fought a wrestler yet in UFC...

 

[cmw43]

D1 doesn't mean a whole lot in MMA though does it...

You don't think those guys listed were good grapplers?

 

[JustOnce]

GSP is thought to possess the best MMA wrestling in history. But he fought in a time when all we saw was american folkstyle. I can't help but to find GSP's wrestling not so great when I compare it to Dagestanis and Chechens.

I think that GSP's wrestling was the best at the time due to his wrestling's Soviet lineage (Montreal wrestling club is essentially an eastern euro diaspora club) . But now that we have that Caucasian benchmark, how does it rank?

The best bar none.

 

[Rear Naked Toke]

I mentioned it in my OP, so yes I realise.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Not denigrating D1 per se but in terms of MMA grappling were they that good? (more referring to Kos,Fitch and those type of guys).

If a guy with zero wrestling can train with the Canadian team and then just merk them on the mat, not sure how good they really were if that makes sense.

GSP said that everyone on the national team was much better than him, but with four or five years training he thought he might be able to make the team. Its why he didn't pursue the Olympics.

 

[Kha'bless]

I need to know if this is GSP with or without grease? because it makes a huge difference.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

You realize the USA has a population of like 350 million? Dagestan and Chechnya combined might have one tenth of that, and both are part of the Russian Federation.

So uh...tf you talking about?

Irrelevant, given that comparing the best is what's important, irrespective of what percentage of the population they represent. Because only the best get to the Olympics, and what counts is how good the best are, not how good the top 1000 are.

In terms of the ROC vs the United States, ROC got 8 medals last Olympics one less medal but one more gold than the United States (ie 4 gold and 8 medals for ROC, 3 gold and 9 medals for the United States). And ROC had wrestlers from areas other than Dagestan and Chechnya. Its hard to interpret that as saying Dagestan and Chechnya produces better wrestlers than the United States, since clearly some American wrestlers beat their ROC opponents (and two of them won gold medals -- which Dagestanian and Chechnyan wrestlers were better than those gold medalists?

Thinking that America doesn't produce some world class wrestlers (ie guys as good as the ROC produces) is very hard to justify.