How good is Mackenzie Dern compared to a male BJJ guy?

[BJJ Vale Tudo]

Good analysis, I mostly agree but for the dude who wants to learn how to fight, I think it's hard to beat an MMA gym. A year of serious MMA training will make your average joe pretty dangerous, particularly if he goes out of his way to train other disciplines in isolation - do BJJ a couple days a week, kickboxing/boxing a few days as well, a day or two of wrestling etc

I 100% agree that striking is much more "physical attribute dependent" (not only strength) than ground grappling, but I think wrestling is even moreso than those two. There are examples of top women outstriking male fighters (Germaine DeRandemie etc) but in wrestling...not so much - in fact I've read many examples of female olympians struggling with high school wrestlers. I think that's why wrestlers do so well in MMA, beyond just the advantages of knowing the technique - if you are a successful wrestler you are 100% guaranteed to have a whole bunch of great physical attributes because you can't possibly succeed without them.

Well, success in striking will be based on how good a person's chin is and whether they punch hard, I can't think of a physical attribute in wrestling that would compare.

BJJ seems to be more about using height and reach to your advantage, most of Roger Gracies's techniques in his matches are fairly basic.

 

[yetanother]

You dont think she would overpower an average joe that trains at a random bjj or mma gym? She is showing technique against world class opponents. The average sherdog bro would get manhandled by her.

Overpower nope. She is short and not muscular.
Toe hold maybe.

 

[GoatArtemLobov]

Good analysis, I mostly agree but for the dude who wants to learn how to fight, I think it's hard to beat an MMA gym. A year of serious MMA training will make your average joe pretty dangerous, particularly if he goes out of his way to train other disciplines in isolation - do BJJ a couple days a week, kickboxing/boxing a few days as well, a day or two of wrestling etc

I 100% agree that striking is much more "physical attribute dependent" (not only strength) than ground grappling, but I think wrestling is even moreso than those two. There are examples of top women outstriking male fighters (Germaine DeRandemie etc) but in wrestling...not so much - in fact I've read many examples of female olympians struggling with high school wrestlers. I think that's why wrestlers do so well in MMA, beyond just the advantages of knowing the technique - if you are a successful wrestler you are 100% guaranteed to have a whole bunch of great physical attributes because you can't possibly succeed without them.

Agree, MMA is a must, but if I had to choose between grappling and striking, I would advise the guy to take striking.
I think you always need 3 things to succeed in a combat sport: 1) technical and tactical knowledge 2) athleticism, physical attributes 3) a "mean" mentality (willingness to take and to give punishment)
In bjj, the 3rd aspect is almost non-existent (you don't need to be willing to accept brain damage or to inflict brain damage to your opponent in order to succeed) and the 2nd aspect, while important, is less important than in other sports since you dramatically decrease the energy a strong human being can generate from the ground (like when cowboys take a bull down to negate his sheer force), so, as a result, the 1st aspect is uber important.
In striking arts, the 3rd aspect is super important, as you can't become a competitive striker if you are not willing to hurt your opponent's most precious organ and accept that he does the same to yours. There is also the great equalizers that are called KO power and chin who make the 2nd aspect super important. So, as a result, even if the 1st aspect is still very important, it is way less than in other sports, otherwise you wouldn't have guys like Wilder in the top 5 in boxing or Ngannou in MMA (who is one of the most if not the most proficient striker in mma)
I never wrestled so I can't talk about that but what you say totally fits with what I experience in my everyday bjj training, namely that the white belt rugby players take me down like nothing and that the 120 pound female judo bb never ever came close to unbalance me...

 

[RemyR]

How the fuck is this thread still going on?

And it’s not like this is the first time this has been discussed. I can’t wait for some rendition to pop up again a couple months later.









Rickson by armbar.

 

[TheMaster]

I think a female UFC champion would generally be able to hang with typical amateur level male MMA fighters, maybe even the bottom ranking male pro fighters of similar size in the small organizations.

This is absolutely ridiculous.
MMA training or grappling is not super powers.
Nor is being in the UFC.
Top ranking female MMA or UFC fighters would get smashed by any amateur male MMA fighter and a large percentage of hobbyists and strong untrained guys also.

Someone like cyborg even still would struggle with majority of strong hobbyist guys in mma.
You forget that they look great against other women which is a different thing.

 

[maximus__]

Agree, MMA is a must, but if I had to choose between grappling and striking, I would advise the guy to take striking.
I think you always need 3 things to succeed in a combat sport: 1) technical and tactical knowledge 2) athleticism, physical attributes 3) a "mean" mentality (willingness to take and to give punishment)
In bjj, the 3rd aspect is almost non-existent (you don't need to be willing to accept brain damage or to inflict brain damage to your opponent in order to succeed) and the 2nd aspect, while important, is less important than in other sports since you dramatically decrease the energy a strong human being can generate from the ground (like when cowboys take a bull down to negate his sheer force), so, as a result, the 1st aspect is uber important.
In striking arts, the 3rd aspect is super important, as you can't become a competitive striker if you are not willing to hurt your opponent's most precious organ and accept that he does the same to yours. There is also the great equalizers that are called KO power and chin who make the 2nd aspect super important. So, as a result, even if the 1st aspect is still very important, it is way less than in other sports, otherwise you wouldn't have guys like Wilder in the top 5 in boxing or Ngannou in MMA (who is one of the most if not the most proficient striker in mma)
I never wrestled so I can't talk about that but what you say totally fits with what I experience in my everyday bjj training, namely that the white belt rugby players take me down like nothing and that the 120 pound female judo bb never ever came close to unbalance me...

I would disagree on that 3rd point. I have done martial arts since I was young and the grind of BJJ is much worse than striking in my opinion.

No matter who you are at some point during your BJJ and grappling journey you will have spent a period getting absolutely smashed on the ground. Whether that's being pinned on the bottom of mount for extended periods unable to breath, fighting out of semi locked in submissions and fighting 100% just to get your hand to a new spot to relieve the pressure from a cross face being liberally applied.

In striking you get little breaks in between combos and can fight backwards and defensively if required. Yes repeated strikes to the head eventually can lead to brain damage, but having your neck, knees and shoulders cranked on also causes long term issues as you get older.

I think hard BJJ sparring or competition leads to just as much of a mean mentality as any striking art. In my opinion it's physically harder than any striking art both physically and mentally.

I also disagree on Francis Nganou. He is just a guy who has power and we saw what happens when he fights someone with similar power he can't bum rush and catch(Derrick Lewis). Just because he is big and knocks people out doesn't make him a proficient striker, but it's working for him so far. I hope he makes some technical changes because I think he has potential provided he stays off the ground.

 

[No Skill Gap]

This is absolutely ridiculous.
MMA training or grappling is not super powers.
Nor is being in the UFC.
Top ranking female MMA or UFC fighters would get smashed by any amateur male MMA fighter and a large percentage of hobbyists and strong untrained guys also.

Someone like cyborg even still would struggle with majority of strong hobbyist guys in mma.
You forget that they look great against other women which is a different thing.

Yeah well I agree that is is absolute ridiculous but to say all hobbyists is going a bit far.

Anyone who is X% bigger and is probably average to above average athletics, who has some basis in training in both striking and grappling? Yes 100% agree.

Top amateur men? Yeah get the fuck outta here lmao. Top AM men would eviscerate women ufc fighters without question.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Agree, MMA is a must, but if I had to choose between grappling and striking, I would advise the guy to take striking.
I think you always need 3 things to succeed in a combat sport: 1) technical and tactical knowledge 2) athleticism, physical attributes 3) a "mean" mentality (willingness to take and to give punishment)
In bjj, the 3rd aspect is almost non-existent (you don't need to be willing to accept brain damage or to inflict brain damage to your opponent in order to succeed) and the 2nd aspect, while important, is less important than in other sports since you dramatically decrease the energy a strong human being can generate from the ground (like when cowboys take a bull down to negate his sheer force), so, as a result, the 1st aspect is uber important.
In striking arts, the 3rd aspect is super important, as you can't become a competitive striker if you are not willing to hurt your opponent's most precious organ and accept that he does the same to yours. There is also the great equalizers that are called KO power and chin who make the 2nd aspect super important. So, as a result, even if the 1st aspect is still very important, it is way less than in other sports, otherwise you wouldn't have guys like Wilder in the top 5 in boxing or Ngannou in MMA (who is one of the most if not the most proficient striker in mma)
I never wrestled so I can't talk about that but what you say totally fits with what I experience in my everyday bjj training, namely that the white belt rugby players take me down like nothing and that the 120 pound female judo bb never ever came close to unbalance me...

Your argument completely falls apart when anyone could just say A Wrestler

Throughout the history of MMA wrestlers have had great success and dominated the sport at times, and completely fulfill the 3rd area you list.

I don't think BJJ as a base necessarily makes someone lesser or incapable in the 3rd area either, it's just that...obviously there's way more hobbyists and normal people doing BJJ. Hobbysits and normal ass people don't go into boxing gyms and punch each other in the fuck head usually.

 

[Esile]

Speaking of men vs women in BJJ, does anyone remember Hillary Williams?
She used to compete in men's tournament and did fairly well, even against considerably larger and more muscular males, she even won a men's tournament at blue belt and took second or third place in others.
I believe she had a total positive record of 11-9 against men.

Moreover she hold one of the most convincing win against Gabi Garcia (she throw her down with a Seoi Nage and hurt her wrist in the procecess, so she forfeited from the match), which is pretty much the same as facing a big and strong man.

I find such accomplishments very impressive, it's a shame she retired so early.

 

[Kforcer]

Speaking of men vs women in BJJ, does anyone remember Hillary Williams?
She used to compete in men's tournament and did fairly well, even against considerably larger and more muscular males, she even won a men's tournament at blue belt and took second or third place in others.
I believe she had a total positive record of 11-9 against men.

Moreover she hold one of the most convincing win against Gabi Garcia (she throw her down with a Seoi Nage and hurt her wrist in the procecess, so she forfeited from the match), which is pretty much the same as facing a big and strong man.

I find such accomplishments very impressive, it's a shame she retired so early.

She said she had joint issues, I think some serious tendonitis or maybe even early onset arthritis. She said part of it came from going too hard in practice all the time with male training partners, or something to that effect. I don't want to put words into her mouth, but I do remember she said that she thought the intensity level of her training and her determination to fight out of joint locks extracted a toll from her body.

 

[sb413197]

She said she had joint issues, I think some serious tendonitis or maybe even early onset arthritis. She said part of it came from going too hard in practice all the time with male training partners, or something to that effect. I don't want to put words into her mouth, but I do remember she said that she thought the intensity level of her training and her determination to fight out of joint locks extracted a toll from her body.

She also became a physician if I recall - that will crimp your style for sure

 

[RemyR]

Speaking of men vs women in BJJ, does anyone remember Hillary Williams?
She used to compete in men's tournament and did fairly well, even against considerably larger and more muscular males, she even won a men's tournament at blue belt and took second or third place in others.
I believe she had a total positive record of 11-9 against men.

Moreover she hold one of the most convincing win against Gabi Garcia (she throw her down with a Seoi Nage and hurt her wrist in the procecess, so she forfeited from the match), which is pretty much the same as facing a big and strong man.

I find such accomplishments very impressive, it's a shame she retired so early.

I trained very briefly with her, she’s legit

 

[Kforcer]

She also became a physician if I recall - that will crimp your style for sure

I wonder if that made her look at her injuries from a different light.

 

[shunyata]

I wonder if that made her look at her injuries from a different light.

It's a super demanding day (or night) job that usually comes with massive student loans.

Not easy to do that + train full time like a pro athlete. Something has to give and work pays the bills + loans while BJJ doesn't pay unless you're in the seminar / dvd / streaming game.

 

[rmongler]

Speaking of men vs women in BJJ, does anyone remember Hillary Williams?

She used to post on here actually, haven't seen her in years though.

 

[Kforcer]

She used to post on here actually, haven't seen her in years though.

Yup, I remember that. She talked in some depth about her experiences training with Billy Robinson. She said he helped her a lot with leglock defense ahead of ADCC, where she was concerned about Megumi Fujii. Which is interesting in that Fujii was also something of a Robinson student.

 

[EGDM]

Speaking of men vs women in BJJ, does anyone remember Hillary Williams?

I know her through my sister. For all her success, I'd bet a lot she'd tell you that, for a woman grappling against men, injury prevention is top of mind regardless of skill differential.

it's a shame she retired so early.

She also became a physician if I recall - that will crimp your style for sure

She became a neurologist. Hard to argue with that choice.

 

[Kforcer]

I know her through my sister. For all her success, I'd bet a lot she'd tell you that, for a woman grappling against men, injury prevention is top of mind regardless of skill differential.




She became a neurologist. Hard to argue with that choice.

Didn't she have some issues with early arthritis or some sort of joint issues? I'm almost positive I remember her discussing as much in an interview.

 

[EGDM]

Didn't she have some issues with early arthritis or some sort of joint issues? I'm almost positive I remember her discussing as much in an interview.

I can't recall, though it wouldn't surprise me at all. It's rare NOT to develop joint problems in this sport.

 

[dirtypablo]

Yes, physiology matters and you are still way overestimating Dern and any wmma fighter or grappler.
She would get smoked by plenty of high school wrestlers if they had a bit of know how and even plenty of big untrained guys even if they got even a bit of knowledge.

I posted this vid before and it was moved to fantasy forum.


Tara Larosa
Credentials:
ADCC silver at openweight and 60 kg
Multiple time FILA and NAGA world grappling Gold medalist
Former Bodog bantamweight champ

Vs
Untrained dude whose watched some jiujitsu on YouTube

So she has very similar grappling credentials to Dern and has won gold at the highest levels also.
They edit out 2 mins at 7:55 with him in back control which was taken without much difficulty.
He 'loses' after gassing after about 4 minutes which is not surprising being untrained.

In short wmma has come along way and is great as is competive female Judo and Jitjitsu. The skill level has gotten much better.
But it's still against other women. Strength is a big factor even at the same weight between genders. So these comparisons are quite silly alot of the time.

Lol at Tara Larosa having similar grappling credentials as Dern. No offense to Tara, but they're not even remotely close in skill levels.