The "Help me buy a gun" FAQ thread

[fittafeis]

SO you want to buy your first gun, princess?

In order to decide on which gun to buy there are three main things you need to be clear on.

1. Intended use (keep-at-home defense gun or carry gun)
If you live in a state where you can carry the gun, I highly recommend you do so. If you elect to buy a firearm for CC(concealed carry) then any rifle or shotgun is automatically out of the equation. Who else will be using the gun?

2. How much money do you want to invest?
Weapons range in price from a few hundred dollars to several thousand.
Your budget also comes into play in relation to what caliber weapon you choose. A case of 9mm is significantly cheaper than a case of 45 ACP or .223

3. Firearms and use of force laws in your state
Self defense is great and all, but be sure you're in the right. Know what you can and cannot do. Every state has different laws regarding carrying using and buying weapons.

I'll go over what I see as three of the best options for a first time self-defense gun buyer:

A handgun

Price range: $400-700
Basic polymer handguns such as the ones from glock, smith&wesson, springfield armory etc are cheap, extremely reliable even when neglected, have a large round capacity and are super high value for money. An excellent choice as a first time gun buyer.

Pro's and cons
+Carryable/concealable
+Relatively inexpensive
+9mm is still pretty cheap
+most polymer style handguns are virtually impossible to make jam

-Limited accuracy
-Limited range (effective range of most full-frame handguns is max 50 yds for normal people
-It's a handgun. In the military they say you use your handgun to fight your way to a real gun. It's true. If you are ever in a gun-fight against someone with a rifle you will be SOOL.



A carbine rifle

Price range: $650-3000
An ar-15 style carbine is serious firepower. With a full 30 round mag of .223/5.56mm rounds you will rarely find your self outgunned by anything you are likely to encounter, unless you are a soldier at war.
the AR15 offers rifle-grade ballistic properties in a compact package with low recoil. In my humble opinion, this is the absolute ultimate home defense weapon, especially for smaller people including females.
You can get all sorts of accessories mounted on your weapon. The only I would suggest as being crucial for home defense is a flashlight of some sorts.

Pro's and cons
+Its a rifle.
+Incredible firepower (controlability, rate of fire and round capacity)
+Good accuracy and effective range

-Illegal/restricted in some states
-Requires more attention to run reliably
-More expensive ammo
-Bigger and heavier. Not something you carry around


A Shotgun (urbans fav)

Price range: $200-1200
A simple pump action shotgun like a remington 870 or mossberg 500 are cheap and have, simply put, "brutal" short range effects. Ammo is not too pricy, but if you shoot a 12 gauge full-load like buckshot or slugs your shoulder will get hammered to crap long before you run out of ammo anyways.

Pro's and cons
+Basic pump action shotguns are readily available for next to nothing
+Pump actions are extremely reliable
+12 gauge buckshot or slugs offers devastating ballistics in short ranges

-Spread is something to consider if you shoot buckshot.
-Poorer effective range (though more than good enough for indoors use)
-12 gauge kicks like a mule. If you're a small person or female you will likely not want to practice shooting this gun much. (bird shot is an option though!)
-Slower follow up shots when racking a new shell
-More limited mag capacity
-Not a carry-weapon.

Other topics:

The Basic gun safety rules
1. Always treat all guns as if they were loaded
2. Don't point the gun at anything you're not willing to destroy
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Keep weapon on safe until you are ready to fire
5. Know your targets foreground and background
^This may be the most improtant info in the entire thread. Please follow these rules at all times when handling guns and don't be an idiot like this guy: Cop Shoots Self | SPIKE

Calibers(pistol):
22lr is not an effective self defense caliber. Of course you can stop a threat with it, but why would you pick something that weak when you have a choice?
9mm often gets talked down a lot, but if you actually check ballistics tests, 9mm comes out pretty good. Another bonus is that virtually all the guns chambered in 9mm have a high round capacity.
40s&w Its a more controversial caliber, some like it, many don't. Personally I feel it is an answer to a question nobody asked. I would suggest as Rob Leatham says "I want a lot of rounds(9mm) or alot of gun (45ACP). That said the 40 is not a bad choice at all. Some 40cal guns have a more snappy recoil though, so try to shoot the gun before you buy it.
45ACP It makes bigger holes than the other three above mentioned. Many people swear by this cartridge, but it does kick more than all of the above too.
Bottom line is that provided that penetration is adequate, the main determening factor of what people call "stopping power" is actually shot placement. Hitting the spinal chord or other vitals. Shoot what you can afford, shoot what you're comfortable with, and practice alot.

Practice
It doesn't matter if you're shooting a 50BMG rifle if you can't hit your target. Practice is key to weapon mastery.
I highly suggest new shooters get involved in IDPA/IPSC/USPSA style shooting. Its tons of fun and after one competition you will truly realize how much you can improve your skills.
Welcome to USPSA.org - Home of the United States Practical Shooting Association
International Defensive Pistol Association
International Practical Shooting Confederation

Online gun stores and other resources
Handgunlaw.us Carry law resource
Carry Concealed Other good legal resource
AMMOMAN.COM d/b/a Discount Distributors Ammo at decent prices. Used this guy several times with good results.
Ammunition To Go : Your one stop for all of your ammunition needs! More ammo. Recommend this dealer too.
Guns - Online Gun Auction - Guns for Sale at GunBroker.com Like ebay but with guns! Good deals to be had.
Impact Guns Online Store Big online store that usually keeps alot in stock. Decent prices on the things I've checked out there.
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing Good info regarding ammo penetration. Get the facts rather than opinions.

 

[fittafeis]

reserved

 

[iheartbooze]

High round capacity 12 gauge - my personal fav (obviously talking about home defense, not carrying). Highly reliable, and you can't beat the stopping power. Also, you can't beat the value if you're on a tight budget. This is a big consideration for me, as my children apparently eat all of my money. You can get the gun in the pic for around $300 if you deal shop, and you can get a basic hunting pump 12 ga for just a tad over $200. The latter might have a low round capacity and cumbersome 28" barrel for in-home defense, but you can also hunt with it. If you can't afford a gun for every situation, it's definitely the 1st one to buy IMHO.

For carrying - I say spring for the Glock or SIG. I hate it when people tell me I need to pay twice as much for something that's a little better, but we're talking more like 10 times better than the cheapy model you'd get in the $200s as opposed to the high $400s for the Glock. Also IMHO, anything more than $500 for a handgun is wasted...you can get exactly what you need for about that price.

As for fully automatic assault rifles - I can't imagine being in the kind of situation in my life where I'd actually need it, but that's just me. Maybe one day enemy paratroopers will start landing in my yard like in Red Dawn or some well armed gang bangers will roll up my cul-de-sac, and I'll be sorry I said that...lol. By the way, for what it's worth, my friend has an AK-47 and it's probably his favorite gun!

edit - I don't mean to talk down about some very solid handguns which some manufacturers such as S & W have been able to offer in the $200s - I can definitely respect that, being on a very tight budget all the time. But it's just amazing what you can do to a Glock and still have it work perfectly. I just meant to say, that my personal preference, even considering my lack of funds, is the Glock or SIG even at the higher price. I would say though, that I definitely wouldn't buy and no-name handgun for cheap, when you can get at least a reliable gun for under $300.

 

[Ralff]

May want to add something about overpenetration. Using 12ga slugs or a high powered rifle in an apartment wouldn't be wise since they can easily go into the next apartment.

 

[fittafeis]

May want to add something about overpenetration. Using 12ga slugs or a high powered rifle in an apartment wouldn't be wise since they can easily go into the next apartment.

True, but that goes for any other caliber that can be considered for home defense too, hence the reference to box of truth at the bottom of the post.

 

[Brandon K. Swanson]

Knowing your experience level is vital to suggest you a weapon. When I started shooting at the age of 17, I started with a 30 30. Take your hunt to an entirely new level with the ergonomic 30 30 rifle and a multi-coated waterproof lanse scope!

 

[jericksen5]

May want to add something about overpenetration. Using 12ga slugs or a high powered rifle in an apartment wouldn't be wise since they can easily go into the next apartment.

This is pretty antiquated information, and basically backwards, but for whatever reason gets non stop repeated. Assuming your referring to .223 as a “high powered rifle”, that’s just not the case. If we’re talking about typical stud walls and drywall, your common pistol calibers will tend to penetrate further than a .223 round will, as the lightweight .223 round at higher velocities of a CQB exchange will fragment and dump most of its energy into the first thing it hits.

The real truth of the matter is, “over penetration” is going to be somewhat of an issue with no matter what your shooting with. Best thing to do is know what’s behind your target before you pull the trigger.

 

[jericksen5]

Also OP is leaving out what I would consider to be a fairly significant “con” of using an AR for home defense. They’re LOUD, especially when you get into barrels 12” or shorter, which are fairly popular now with AR pistols. Loud enough to rattle your noggin without ear pro. A few rounds indoors, along with the bright flash, can quickly leave you somewhat disoriented.

While I’m not suggesting an AR is a poor choice for HD, as it is definitely not, it’s not a straightforward winner either. If your lucky enough to live in a state that will allow suppressors, and have the money and will to do so, then I’d agree that the AR is king for HD.

Also, if you’re going to run an AR for home defense, make sure your optic is set up properly for the ranges you anticipate. I see a lot of guys have optics set up for 50 yd zeros, but don’t at all understand where that puts the POI at ranges of 7yds or less. Maybe not a huge deal, but you’re a lot better off understanding where your round will impact at the distances you’re going to shoot.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Holy necro batman.

 

[Roaming East]

Who's playing around with the undeath manuals?

 

[evergreenrider]

Why am I not surprised it was Brandon Swanson that posted in a 10 year old thread?

 

[jericksen5]

Holy necro batman.

I didn’t even notice I responded to a 10 year old post ahahahahaah

 

[Gregolian]

Who opened the fucking necronomicon?

 

[Stoic1]

Thread from 2011? We use phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range now.

 

[Gregolian]

Thread from 2011? We use phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range now.

Excuse me, but I use a Stasis Grenade Launcher

 

[TheRash]

This is pretty antiquated information, and basically backwards, but for whatever reason gets non stop repeated. Assuming your referring to .223 as a “high powered rifle”, that’s just not the case. If we’re talking about typical stud walls and drywall, your common pistol calibers will tend to penetrate further than a .223 round will, as the lightweight .223 round at higher velocities of a CQB exchange will fragment and dump most of its energy into the first thing it hits.

The real truth of the matter is, “over penetration” is going to be somewhat of an issue with no matter what your shooting with. Best thing to do is know what’s behind your target before you pull the trigger.

Maybe you can help me understand you point a little better. It's my understanding that you claim a .223 round will dump most of its energy on the first layer of sheetrock in a hollow interior wall, thus rendering the projectile less than lethal as it exits the second layer? I'm having a hard time subscribing to that. I also understand that most handgun rounds, especially HD rounds will penetrate just as far as a .223, and as well shouldn't carry a level of concern when firing. Right?

If my understanding of your statement is correct, I find real issue with it. Interior walls are hollow, and at best are built with 7/16" sheetrock, and I would love to see evidence where a .223, 9mm, .45 acp, or the likes were rendered harmless after two layers of sheetrock.

The second issue I have is your statement on "knowing what's beyond your target before you shoot" In a home defense situation, where lethal force is necessary, are you really going take the time to ask the invader to move away from your daughters bedroom wall, or take the extra 5 steps to change the angle of your shot? Or have a second questioning thought about what's beyond your target? Because the invader won't do any of that, and that's when he'll win.

Lastly, a home invasion can happen at any minute in any circumstance, day, night, light, dark, fast, or slow. So to assume after dumping several rounds in an incredibly tense situation, will hit it's intended target center mass is simply naive. Truth is, if lethal force is necessary, it will likely be a chaotic encounter with multiple rounds are fored and some being complete misses and fly without proper aiming, sending the bullet through walls....

I sincerely do not mean to start an argument, as I sleep with my HD weapon nearby. I'm more than willing to change my stance, I'm just going to need some convincing information first, and if you can provide that please do. Thanks.

 

[Roaming East]

.223 WILL penetrate less sheetrock than most pistol rounds mostly as a matter of mass and momentum. A 55 grain projectile going upwards to 3000 fps will basically begin to fracture and fragment as it comes into contact with barriers. Now when that 'barrier' is flesh? Super Good, it means loads of trauma and multiple wound paths. When that material is NOT meat? means less penetration because no single piece has enough mass to force itself through anything. That being said, most of your 5.56 is STILL going to go through multiple dry wall sections. Just not in a linear path because of tumbling/fragmenting and disrupted bullet path.

Handgun bullets are going slow enough and are large enough that they retain 90% or more of their structure upon hitting ANYTHING and the mass equates into momentum that equates into penetration at least in terms of building materials. That distinction only really flips BACK to rifle rounds when you increase the weight of the bullet to something in the .30 call range or more. because the grain weights start to equal out.

 

[TheRash]

.223 WILL penetrate less sheetrock than most pistol rounds mostly as a matter of mass and momentum. A 55 grain projectile going upwards to 3000 fps will basically begin to fracture and fragment as it comes into contact with barriers. Now when that 'barrier' is flesh? Super Good, it means loads of trauma and multiple wound paths. When that material is NOT meat? means less penetration because no single piece has enough mass to force itself through anything. That being said, most of your 5.56 is STILL going to go through multiple dry wall sections. Just not in a linear path because of tumbling/fragmenting and disrupted bullet path.

Handgun bullets are going slow enough and are large enough that they retain 90% or more of their structure upon hitting ANYTHING and the mass equates into momentum that equates into penetration at least in terms of building materials. That distinction only really flips BACK to rifle rounds when you increase the weight of the bullet to something in the .30 call range or more. because the grain weights start to equal out.

I understand this, and agree entirely. However, with 5.56 fragmenting it will still take multiple walls to reduce it to less than lethal. There are tons of videos that back this up.

I wouldn't be worried about hitting someone in another house, but hitting one of my kids in another room automatically disqualifies the AR as an option for most households with multiple occupants.

There are tons of options in 12 ga that make it a more suitable option for HD when it comes to multiple occupant homes.

 

[jericksen5]

Maybe you can help me understand you point a little better. It's my understanding that you claim a .223 round will dump most of its energy on the first layer of sheetrock in a hollow interior wall, thus rendering the projectile less than lethal as it exits the second layer? I'm having a hard time subscribing to that. I also understand that most handgun rounds, especially HD rounds will penetrate just as far as a .223, and as well shouldn't carry a level of concern when firing. Right?

If my understanding of your statement is correct, I find real issue with it. Interior walls are hollow, and at best are built with 7/16" sheetrock, and I would love to see evidence where a .223, 9mm, .45 acp, or the likes were rendered harmless after two layers of sheetrock.

The second issue I have is your statement on "knowing what's beyond your target before you shoot" In a home defense situation, where lethal force is necessary, are you really going take the time to ask the invader to move away from your daughters bedroom wall, or take the extra 5 steps to change the angle of your shot? Or have a second questioning thought about what's beyond your target? Because the invader won't do any of that, and that's when he'll win.

Lastly, a home invasion can happen at any minute in any circumstance, day, night, light, dark, fast, or slow. So to assume after dumping several rounds in an incredibly tense situation, will hit it's intended target center mass is simply naive. Truth is, if lethal force is necessary, it will likely be a chaotic encounter with multiple rounds are fored and some being complete misses and fly without proper aiming, sending the bullet through walls....

I sincerely do not mean to start an argument, as I sleep with my HD weapon nearby. I'm more than willing to change my stance, I'm just going to need some convincing information first, and if you can provide that please do. Thanks.

No idea how you interpreted any of that from my post. Never did I state, or even imply, that a .223 round would be less than lethal after hitting a single layer of Sheetrock. What I actually said was that it would dump most of its energy on the first layer of sheet rock, and FRAGMENT, which is what it is designed to do. And comparatively, pistol rounds with much more mass will tend to penetrate interior walls further than 223/556. I absolutely never claimed nor implied 223 would be less than lethal after hitting a single wall, and in fact specially followed up by saying you should know what’s behind your target before you shoot.

To your second point, which is an odd one, about not being able to know what’s behind what your shooting, in your own home. I’m sorry but that’s just ignorant. If your plan to defend your home and family stops at “step 1: buy a gun”, you’re a lot less prepared than you think you are.

 

[jericksen5]

I understand this, and agree entirely. However, with 5.56 fragmenting it will still take multiple walls to reduce it to less than lethal. There are tons of videos that back this up.

I wouldn't be worried about hitting someone in another house, but hitting one of my kids in another room automatically disqualifies the AR as an option for most households with multiple occupants.

There are tons of options in 12 ga that make it a more suitable option for HD when it comes to multiple occupant homes.

You literally missed the entire point of my post, and are watching videos with bad information. If you’re disqualifying the AR platform for home defense due to “over-penetration”, in favor of a 12ga, you’re making decisions off of incredibly old debunked broscience.