Was Randy Couture right?

[qiksilverman]

another valid point on why I don't see subs ever leaving is people getting pummeled from any position or pummeling someone too much inside the guard and getting caught - people will always make mistakes therefore there will always be submissions - we are all human after all


ps - except for Fedor

 

[Ybot]

I think knoxpk, KenTheWalrus, and franz_grinder have the right idea. It will probably go in cycles. As subs begin to happen less frequently, competitors will begin to adapt to that by spending less time training them and more on other aspects that seem more important at the time. Then all of a sudden a new grappler will enter MMA and start subbing people left and right, and so training of subs and sub defence will pick up again.

In the end I believe the best MMA fighters are specialists in one or two ranges of fighting, and adequate in the others. What seperates them from the mediocre or bad competitors with the specialty is their ability to take a fight to the range they are dominate in, and keep it there.

 

[blanko]

it's the rules that effect subs more than anything imho. Quicker standups and shorter rounds= less subs

 

[jjmuaythaiguy]

it's the rules that effect subs more than anything imho. Quicker standups and shorter rounds= less subs

I agree with this post.

In fact, I think one league has a rule that stands you up in 15 seconds on the ground? Or something like that. Others do not allow closed guards anymore. So yeah, we see less and less submissions as the rules favor "action". I don't want to put any blame on any particular fighter but those that just lay and pray may have started the whole stand up rule, no closed guard, 15 seconds on the ground which really is good for wrestlers and strikers.

When Rorion made the UFC there was less rules than there were today and there is no way a Royce Gracie versus Dan Severn match would be seen in mma today with the stand up rule, etc.

 

[KenTheWalrus]

I'd like to see more judo being trained for mma. Alot of the throws don't require a dip down leaving you open. The subs required in sanctioned tournaments need to be applied within a matter of seconds after the takedown. Alot of the no-gi throws are applied from a clinch anyway. This addresses the open shooting problem, the stand-up/rounds issue, and the intial tie-up issues.

I think that judo doesn't get respect as a viable tool from a large percentage of high calibre training talent, which is their right. It might be the time commitment required for sharp techniques or the gi/no-gi issue. (the gi can be worked around for the majority of judo but it's harder than gi training in my opinion)

I'm waiting for the day that a judo master works to adapt the art to an mma variation, a new variation with mma rules as a driving force. No-gi only, takedowns with strike defense, ground position for subs and strikes, and the use of strikes to open new positions would all have to be addressed. Then I believe that there will be a resurgence in takedowns and submissions.

Let's not forget the "WOW" factor of a beautiful judo throw in an mma bout. Stunning. -ken

 

[franz_grinder]

it's the rules that effect subs more than anything imho. Quicker standups and shorter rounds= less subs

It'll take time for the MMA grappler to evolve in order to deal with these changes, but it will happen.

Like I had said in my first post. MMA and martial arts as a whole for the last ten years have finally been thouroughly tested as application goes. All martial artists have a long way to go.

 

[franz_grinder]

I'd like to see more judo being trained for mma. Alot of the throws don't require a dip down leaving you open. The subs required in sanctioned tournaments need to be applied within a matter of seconds after the takedown. Alot of the no-gi throws are applied from a clinch anyway. This addresses the open shooting problem, the stand-up/rounds issue, and the intial tie-up issues.

I think that judo doesn't get respect as a viable tool from a large percentage of high calibre training talent, which is their right. It might be the time commitment required for sharp techniques or the gi/no-gi issue. (the gi can be worked around for the majority of judo but it's harder than gi training in my opinion)

I'm waiting for the day that a judo master works to adapt the art to an mma variation, a new variation with mma rules as a driving force. No-gi only, takedowns with strike defense, ground position for subs and strikes, and the use of strikes to open new positions would all have to be addressed. Then I believe that there will be a resurgence in takedowns and submissions.

Let's not forget the "WOW" factor of a beautiful judo throw in an mma bout. Stunning. -ken

Whenever Nak throws a guy head over heels I get more excited than a good slam.

Unless it's Barnett pulling Pro-wrestling moves outta his ass.

 

[spalterego]

Another thing to consider however is that as MMA evolves we may see rule changes. If, as some fear/predict, everybody becomes so skilled in defending submissions that no one bothers to try them, then the MMA game will start to look more like boxing or Thai/kickboxing.

Since the point of MMA is to highlight all areas of the fight game, rule changes will be implemented forcing fighters to grapple. For example, as in folkstyle wrestling, each fighter might be given an opportunity to start in a dominant grappling position. Alternatively, perhaps rules would force fighters to wear a gi or similar outfit to enhance the grapplers ability.

If, instead, mma evolves into a primarily grappling contest rules changes will be introduced to force more standup action. For example faster restarts to standing etc.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

I'd like to see more judo being trained for mma. Alot of the throws don't require a dip down leaving you open. The subs required in sanctioned tournaments need to be applied within a matter of seconds after the takedown. Alot of the no-gi throws are applied from a clinch anyway. This addresses the open shooting problem, the stand-up/rounds issue, and the intial tie-up issues.

I think that judo doesn't get respect as a viable tool from a large percentage of high calibre training talent, which is their right. It might be the time commitment required for sharp techniques or the gi/no-gi issue. (the gi can be worked around for the majority of judo but it's harder than gi training in my opinion)

I'm waiting for the day that a judo master works to adapt the art to an mma variation, a new variation with mma rules as a driving force. No-gi only, takedowns with strike defense, ground position for subs and strikes, and the use of strikes to open new positions would all have to be addressed. Then I believe that there will be a resurgence in takedowns and submissions.

Let's not forget the "WOW" factor of a beautiful judo throw in an mma bout. Stunning. -ken

Until MMA becomes as prestigious to Judoka as the worlds and the Olympics, more high caliber Judoka wont go into MMA

 

[Kimuralex]

If anything, I see subs becoming cyclical instead of outright disappearing. In this scenario fighters will start to train sub defense less as sub victories become less frequent or at least fighters won't concentrate solely on sub defense. Enter the submission master who trains subs more than anything and in this environment he is an anomaly. Now you have a guy who trains subs much more frequently than his competition is training sub defense. And if there is anything I've learned at all about subs it's that the ones that tend to be sunk in are the ones I never saw coming. Superior skill and results will bring submissions back. -ken

good post i agree, the only way we will know what will be like in 10 years is to actually live that long and find out

 

[zigzzagz]

I think subs will be increasingly rarer. Chuck being a good example as one of the higher evolved MMA fighters. When is the last time there was a serious attempt at a sub in one of his fights? When is the last time somone was in a position to even attempt a sub? Granted most fighters, and up and comers aren't Chuck, nor can many even aspire to being as good but Randy makes a good point. For sure there will never be a Champion in MMA again who like Royce, or any Gracie who has all, or there majority of wins by sub.

I should also point out, it's not "defending the submissions" that will hurt submission wins in MMA, since there will obviously be people who's offense beats another fighters defense. If it was totally possibly to completely defend the submission you'd never see a sub in a JiuJitsu match either. It's the ability to defend the takedown that will hurt the submission masters game. As long as they can get you to the ground, they will always have a chance to submit you.

 

[zigzzagz]

One also has to take into account the fact that MMA fight promoters want to make money, which means they have to please the fans. We here on Sherdog and other MMA sites who understand the ground game, are not the "average fan" we're the diehard, the obsessed, the fringe element who kind of lives for the sport. We represent maybe 10%. The average fan, the other 80-90% have little to no apreciation for the sub game and see it mainly as two men groping each other on the floor. As this sport becomes more and more business and more about money than the sport, they may be more inclined to promote fighters who'll give the people what they want which equates to a "Chuck Liddell" style fight. Why do you think his fights sell so well, because he's an intersting man? Not!! It's what the people want to see. It could be the financial 'bottom line' that kills the submission game more than anything.

 

[ccl2087]

you'll always be able to get guys to the ground somehow, and there will always be guys that can pull off submissions

 

[Mirada]

In the long veiw, it'll go in cycles.

For a while submissions might fade into the background, but then all of a sudden someone will show up and take advantage of that lax attitude towards grappling by submitting everyone, whereupon people will become focused on grappling and leave the way open for the next Cro Cop to come in and shake things up yet again with striking.

 

[Kyuktooki]

I don't think submissions will disappear, but I think they will become less common than they are even now. Grappling won't ever go away. I agree that if fighters start to neglect grappling training, they will find themselves facing other fighters who will make them pay for it. If and when fighters do neglect grappling, you will likely see someone coming in performing more submissions. I think that in general you are going to start seeing more and more strikers improve their ability to prevent a takedown. Cro Cop and Chuck are already demonstrating how useful it can to be a striker with an excellent takedown defense.

 

[Shizzy]

everybody knows boxing

No they fucking dont.

 

[Doop]

no he is wrong you idiot

 

[Throatpoker]

i don't think subs will ever disappear.

 

[Q mystic]

In the long veiw, it'll go in cycles.

For a while submissions might fade into the background, but then all of a sudden someone will show up and take advantage of that lax attitude towards grappling by submitting everyone, whereupon people will become focused on grappling and leave the way open for the next Cro Cop to come in and shake things up yet again with striking.

I don't think so, unfortunately. With the viewers demand I am sure we will see more standing and less ground and subs. It just now seems to be with 'smaller gloves' and the option for a takedown gives the kickboxers a chance vs boxers.


Guys like Aoki and Penn give me hope but then they are playing back game. Even I want to see standup just for a throw to a better position sometimes for the grappler.

Its odd because the sport is now taking over very far from the fight and it all sarted with some dumb rules and lack of evolution in the 'fight game' without giving the game a chance. We used to think we saw 'evolution' in 1 or 2 mma events and now we see it takes plenty.`

If, just say, however, mma fights didn't end until the towel got thrown in.....subs would be a fan favorite.

 

[RoyMunson]

nog has been training bjj since he was a kid and barnett almost caught him.... no, subs will not dissappear.