When to break a partner’s arm

[Zanderlini]

This is a crazy article. And I don't even think it's interesting.

It's never cool to intentionally break a training partner's limb. It's never justified.

Guys that do that should be kicked out the gym and black listed by all their local jiu jitsu gyms. Fuck jiu jitsu world needs to have a "no fly list" for people like that. It's beyond irresponsible.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Breaking a training partner should almost never occur, though of course shit does happen sometimes in training any combat art. It should be carefully avoided on all sides to the best of everyone’s ability.

I’ve paused on submissions against whitebelts a bunch of times, if I am applying a slow finish & they are just squirming like a fish, & not 1. intelligently escaping, nor 2. tapping, to tell them they need to learn to do one or the other.

Usually tends to happen in kimuras & americanas, where there is a lot of variance in shoulder flexibility & people don’t know their limits. Although sometimes it happens even in armbars, where it should be obvious to anyone. Some people are just more stubborn and/or lost in the heat of a roll than others. I forgive this in whitebelts — but any rank beyond that having this problem is somewhat shameful. The tap & the bow are the main moves in jiujitsu you are supposed to master at whitebelt.

americanas are bad for that, the pressure is all or nothing.

 

[Zanderlini]

I had a guy limping for a bit because he basically stomped my face as I was applying an Achilles. I'd say the jerk I gave was justified. It was basically reflex anyways. Guy was upwards of 300, I was in the 180's. It hurt, my nose was streaming blood and I had to stop rolling for the day. So anyway, when is a break justified...? If a guy tries to stomp your face while you're grappling with him, then I think it's not such a bad thing.

If you wanna give an aggressive new guy a slice of humble pie choke his ass out instead. This is why everybody did to my dumbass 19 year old ass when I started. I didn't even think I was being aggressive at the time I was just thinking I'm being a good training partner lol. Took me awhile to realize you're not suppose to pull over to throw up 10x on the drive home.

 

[jpak]

I’m competition I’d break an arm but never in training..

And I just like everyone else has likely been in the situation described in the article, at an open mat we had some guys from another gym come by, there was a white belt who gave up his arms non stop but refused to tap so I let the arm bars, Americana and kimuras go, apparently every one else had the same issue with this guy, and when he left we heard him brag that no one could finish a sub on him lol

I wasn’t there but 2 weeks later he rolled with a purple belt from our gym, didn’t tap to a choke and went unconscious lol

 

[Kforcer]

If you wanna give an aggressive new guy a slice of humble pie choke his ass out instead. This is why everybody did to my dumbass 19 year old ass when I started. I didn't even think I was being aggressive at the time I was just thinking I'm being a good training partner lol. Took me awhile to realize you're not suppose to pull over to throw up 10x on the drive home.

In my case, I wasn't trying to teach anyone a lesson and actually, crazily enough, the stomper was the class instructor (the gym was run by a wrestling and MMA legend but he didn't actually run the classes very often and he elected this particular guy to do it for him most of the time). He actually painted me as the spazz, but I wasn't even really trying to do anything, at least, not consciously. It was just a gut response; I had an Achilles and then I had a huge foot in my face and so the natural instinct was to finish it.

It's funny, I've actually explained my side of things to guys from that class years later and there were at least a few that didn't seem to sympathize with it, for whatever reason.

 

[yokerclown]

good article, also nice webpage thank you !

 

[JinKazama]

anon white belt lol

 

[dmwalking]

You're dead wrong on that last line in terms of self defense and chokes and the law.

If you're worried about legal repercussions, you're much better off dislocating or hyperextending an elbow/shoulder than you are using a choke hold in a non sporting situation.


Holding the choke, because there's no ref, you didn't know he was out, his companions are threatening to shoot you and you're using him as a shield (that was a real life road rage case a couple years back) is much more likely to literally kill the person.

Say you choke them out but then let go instantly when the go out, they wake back up belligerent as ever. Unless you're letting go instantly, laying their head gently on the ground, then running like hell, a choke is far more likely to go horribly wrong.

I politely disagree. With proper control, I believe that you can calm someone down with a choke and maintain a control position better than with a joint lock. My experience is anecdotal, but I believe this from experience. I was able darce a drunk attacker into calming down (without putting them fully to sleep), before law enforcement got involved. I found it to be better than the Kimura I had before that. But again, totally anecdotal. I’m just saying that from experience, it seems that people can believe that they can outlast a joint lock. But their negotiations are more amicable with a choke in place.

I appreciate your opinion (backed by facts) though.

 

[Daz2300]

The argument that you should maim your friends in training so that you will do this on the street is beyond retarded. If you actually believe that you deserve to be hit by a 2×4.

This "train like you fight...so break their arm" idea is the most idiotic argument ever and if it was true any sparring in any striking art would just be a straight-forward real fight in the gym with no gloves, no rounds and two guys lamping each other.

There's a good reason why there isn't a single martial art of any sort trains that way. None claim to either apart from the worst kind of groin strikes & eye gouges self-defence bullshitters.

 

[HollaBack]

even in training i think it slightly depends. Give em a pass a few times, but some submissions I would just slowly start putting some more force into into it and if there still not tapping, maybe your not playing ruff enough for them, test their limits, and if there shit snaps, well you gave them plenty of time

 

[jaym_100]

I politely disagree. With proper control, I believe that you can calm someone down with a choke and maintain a control position better than with a joint lock. My experience is anecdotal, but I believe this from experience. I was able darce a drunk attacker into calming down (without putting them fully to sleep), before law enforcement got involved. I found it to be better than the Kimura I had before that. But again, totally anecdotal. I’m just saying that from experience, it seems that people can believe that they can outlast a joint lock. But their negotiations are more amicable with a choke in place.

I appreciate your opinion (backed by facts) though.

A lot of this depends on where you live and the DA. If you choke someone out, hold it too long and they die you are in a world of shit. If you use and arm lock and break their arm you could possibly be charged with agg assault, also a world of shit. Properly applied chokes are most effective against people on lots of drugs or extreme mental disorders as sometimes pain compliance doesn't work. Every time you get in a fight, you are taking a chance of something going wrong and you ending up in bad situation. Make sure its worth it.

Training like you fight. Not finishing submissions in the gym is not going to carry over to a real fight. This argument has been made before in other things and just isn't true. What seems to be true. If you train pure jujitsu, whatever action you take, might not keep you from getting punched or kicked. Unless you are somehow oblivious to being in danger your not just going to let go and bow or some other dumb shit.

This article is stupid. You have some pretty bad ego problems if you think you need to injure your training partner. I'm very new to bjj but I would hope shit like this would not be allowed in gym.

 

[Kforcer]

E)Not roll with them.

I wouldn't train with someone who knew what an armbar was but still wouldn't tap to it in training.

I avoid sparring with idiots at all costs.

Abso-frigging-lutely. I'm not saying I've been wise enough to follow this, but I absolutely agree with it.

 

[maximus__]

People should tap, but I do think, unless we're just forced to defend ourselves, it's also on the person applying the submission to know when to stop. I've gassed myself out many times finishing Achilles locks slowly against people desperately trying to spazz out of it or attempting an out-of-position leglock counter and it's annoying, but it beats hurting someone.

Actually, a guy I trained with back in the day loved heel-hooks and was obsessed with the idea that his heel-hooks were better than my Achilles locks or something like that and sometimes would try to prove a point by not tapping when I had an Achilles locked in. I'm sure I could've finished it, but at a certain point, I figure, just let people have their pride and go on with it.

I hate it when people do that. I have had people grunting in it and they refuse to tap. I just let it go and people will act like they won and escaped. If I can lock a good achilles lock on you, I can lock a heel hook also. The worst I had was a guy who used to spin out of straight ankle locks and I would just have to release it.

I see it with smaller people also.If you catch me in a locked in sub I couldn't escape against someone my size or similar I will always tap. I already stuffed up and it's not the time to fight that sub 100%. I defend armbars well so I fight them a bit more but once my hands are disconnected I am tapping before you get the chance to hip in.

 

[RemyR]

I don’t need to read that article, I usually try to break a partner’s arm once a week.

It’s my fun way of keeping everyone on their toes.

 

[colby25]

I was competing in a grappling comp back in 2007. I had full mount on him and Caught the guy in an armbar, cranked on it and heard it pop so i instinctively let go, i didn't want to hurt him.

The guy continues to fight through after i popped up...so i still had the arm...and i slowly but surely extended until i felt everything rip and go completely limp in his arm.

It was def messed up.

And i'm looking at the guy a bit confused as I got his arm completely extended, broken for sure at the elbow.....and then he taps out.

...i said, 'why didn't you tap out?' he didn't really have an answer.

Next time i saw him he was sitting with the EMT getting his arm looked at.


but to answer the thread starter...i'd never do that to a guy in training. For a moment i thought the guy was double jointed, his face was completely calm throughout the whole ordeal.

 

[judoka loca]

I popped a guy's ankle with a straight footlock in a tournament recently. I knew I had it and I applied it slowly but powerfully, and it was like a Rice Krispy - snap, crackle, pop. He made a grunting sound, I immediately let go, but then he got up and kept coming at me. After the match he tells me he wished he would've tapped.

wtf dude.

 

[RJ Green]

Back when I was worth a shit I overheard a coach telling his athlete not to tap when I caught him in an armbar because I was too nice to finish it. At the time, yeah, I thought it was dumb as fuck to try to finish subs in regional tournaments. Here's the thing - I honestly got super butthurt that a former teammate flat-out told one of his guys to exploit my concern for their well-being. That was the first competition I started doing a 3-mississippi count in my head: I paused where I thought they should tap, kept the pressure steady, and if they still didn't tap? Cool, they wanna be a hero, I'll oblige them.

Looking back, I'm still ashamed of that mentality. Yeah, it's a competition. No, nobody was concerned for my well-being and would've been happy to rip my arm off if given the opportunity. But now that I'm a geezer with a bum elbow from overzealous white belt armbars during drills, I can only imagine how those other dudes feel. Like yeah, we all make dumb choices and pain is the best teacher and we ALL signed the waiver, but...meh?

Now I just don't care. If they wanna be the gym hero during practice that's fine. I don't need to crank my subs to feel better about myself. I'm good with where I'm at. I train because it's fun. Also so I don't get fat.

 

[Kforcer]

I popped a guy's ankle with a straight footlock in a tournament recently. I knew I had it and I applied it slowly but powerfully, and it was like a Rice Krispy - snap, crackle, pop. He made a grunting sound, I immediately let go, but then he got up and kept coming at me. After the match he tells me he wished he would've tapped.

wtf dude.

The referee should've stopped it when he grunted and when he heard the sound. In fact, I think referee's should stop matches more often when a break is about to occur.

 

[Deleted member 405583]

You never break your partner. Period. I was always told "never break your toys". It costs you a partner for however long the recovery is, costs the gym money with the loss of dues, could scare off potential future students. And it makes you look like a jagoff. If its locked in tight and he's not going anywhere and not gonna tap, just transition to something else.
Lately, my coach has been pairing me up with whitebelts when its their first roll. I shake their hand and say " we're gonna have fun, I'm gonna be safe with you and you're gonna be safe with me. And we'll work on what we did during instruction."

 

[JohnPJones]

https://www.bjjreport.com/post/armb..._h3lfzhm5wFdZpQagSKcpKJ6Xnp9ORtIHGrCteWA1w_g8

Interesting article.

i say let go in the gym. You need your training partners healthy. Higher ranks should tell lower belts “hey be careful with holding out for subs. Your competition won’t be as kind as a training partner.” But the gym is practice. No need to injure each other. It’s counter productive.

In competition, break it. You both know the risks of competition.

in the street, one on one fair fight, (think road rage altercation) transition to a better control position. Breaking a limb can be considered excessive force if the legal system gets involved. And you open yourself up to civil suits as well. It’s not worth it. Better to just control them until they either calm down or until law enforcement shows up. Who’s gonna look like the bad guy? The one in full control calmly trying to deescalate the situation? Or the one being controlled behaving belligerently? You don’t need to prove anything in a street fight. You just wanna control the situation and stay out of jail.

In a legit self defense situation, break it. I mean, when it’s life or death, go for everything. Bite. Eye gouge. Ear tear. Groin strikes. Go full Krav Maga. Lol.

and on a side note, chokes are better than joint locks.

How is a road rage assault not legit self defense situation?