How would current heavyweights do in pride?

[moreorless87]

I don't disagree with you at all there brother. I think there is alot to learn about the fluidity in the way Fedor approached the game and it probably has become very standardized in how people train MMA today. But still the access to well proven and tested knowledge and dedicated MMA gyms is far greater today. I don't even think that is a controversial opinion, and is something that I've heard well known fighters have stated as well. I remember for example Overeem's explanation to the fall of Fedor's abilities and his opinion was that he simply didn't adapt to todays MMA. He would know if anyone.

Its not just the UFC the hype comes from of course, fighters and gyms push it as well. Across sport as a whole you will rarely see acknowledgement of decline, the difference is in other sports this is viewed as more sportsmen hyping themselves up, its only in MMA that a relative lack of knowledge and a single promoter dominating how fans view the sport that it can successfully be pushed as the truth. Its the marketing tactic that never loses, older fighters losing is a sure sign that todays product is the best ever.

Thats not to say nobody ever improves with age of a course, I think Overeem is an example of that happening although alot of it was more sideways revolution, Econoreem was a better distance striker than he ever had been before but wasnt nearly as good a grappler/clinch fighter.

As I said the giveaway should be watching the sport, HW in recent years how often have you come away from a fight thinking? dam that was a great technical match or even that was a great technical finish? it hardly ever happens anymore(Reems finish of JDS actually one of the last great HW stoppages IMHO), its a division of glaring errors and weaknesses these days and yet this is sposed to be evolved? some magical evolution that actually looks worse technically?

I would say what we have seen is a decent level of training is more widespread than in the Pride era but I'm not sure the elite level is any better and at HW I think the talent base is significantly worse. The ability to create a good amount of so so fighters isnt that impressive to me, not something I find great to watch.

 

[superpunch]

Its not just the UFC the hype comes from of course, fighters and gyms push it as well. Across sport as a whole you will rarely see acknowledgement of decline, the difference is in other sports this is viewed as more sportsmen hyping themselves up, its only in MMA that a relative lack of knowledge and a single promoter dominating how fans view the sport that it can successfully be pushed as the truth. Its the marketing tactic that never loses, older fighters losing is a sure sign that todays product is the best ever.

Thats not to say nobody ever improves with age of a course, I think Overeem is an example of that happening although alot of it was more sideways revolution, Econoreem was a better distance striker than he ever had been before but wasnt nearly as good a grappler/clinch fighter.

As I said the giveaway should be watching the sport, HW in recent years how often have you come away from a fight thinking? dam that was a great technical match or even that was a great technical finish? it hardly ever happens anymore(Reems finish of JDS actually one of the last great HW stoppages IMHO), its a division of glaring errors and weaknesses these days and yet this is sposed to be evolved? some magical evolution that actually looks worse technically?

I would say what we have seen is a decent level of training is more widespread than in the Pride era but I'm not sure the elite level is any better and at HW I think the talent base is significantly worse. The ability to create a good amount of so so fighters isnt that impressive to me, not something I find great to watch.

I think MMA fans aren't familiar with age declines because, in the past, they were overshadowed by the fast evolution of the sport. Yeah, Hughes really did fall off a cliff in his 30s. Even so, the guys that killed him when he was falling off the cliff would have killed him (GSP, Penn) or given him really tough fights (Koscheck) in his prime too. The next generation really, actually were that much better. So it was easy to say the next generation guys were just better and not notice Hughes' age decline, because they were actually just better than prime Hughes too.

Likewise, Hughes and Gracie. Was Gracie a physically shot and old fighter by that fight? Yeah. But Hughes vs Gracie from UFC 3 would have looked the same. So it was easy to ignore Gracie's decline with age because in the scheme of the sport's fast evolution, it didn't even matter.

The sport's evolution isn't that fast anymore and decline with age is obvious and unarguable now. The fact that so many top HWs are near 40 is a sad state of affairs given that knowledge.

That said, you gotta recognize that the sport still HAS evolved since Fedor. His skiillset would get him destroyed grappling at the top level now. Can you imagine trying to look for armbars from guard with guys like Ngannou, DC, and Jones on top of you? Or trying to get that sweep he had so much success against Nog and Herring with against Jones' hellbows? Or wasting all your energy to get mount, where upon you just immediately reversed nowadays?

 

[boss429]

i don't believe that to be true. fedor rarely fought the natural #1 contender or next in line when he was at the top. i don't agree he would have had the same streak or record. if fedor, nog, werdum, sergei, barnett, cro-cop, aleks, randy, mir, arlovski, hunt, etc are all in a fishbowl fighting each other fight after fight, of course their collective records would be worse. it's not rocket science.

and c'mon, he beat an old judoka in a minute......

In Pride Werdum and Hunt weren't top contenders (though Hunt was more so than Wedum because of the Wand win), Josh was borderline with the 3 losses to Crocop and a 1-1 record against Nog ( the win being controversial), Randy likely doesn't do so well in that fishbowl without a cage.

Who knows how Arlovski does since he wasn't really facing much in the way of top competition in the UFC during the Pride days but he could have done alright.

Mir is the one UFC HW I always thought would have been interesting at the time though and would have been the biggest challenge to Fedor from the UFC stable.

Regardless though he probably still comes out of this undefeated (with an additional 3 top 10 wins) but an Aleks fight would have been out of the question and a Sergei fight would also be unlikely at the time but could have been interesting.

The rest of them definitely trade wins and losses though (as several of them did anyway) so I suppose their records could look slightly different.

 

[Towerworld]

Why would Ngannou vs Fedor favour Ngannou in a cage? Please explain.

Fedor was skilled on the ground and very explosive at posturing up.

I don’t think Ngannou could break him down if Fedor got on top.

IMO Ngannou’s best chance would be to catch Fedor standing up and knock him out before he gets taken down.

That would be a very good chance though >95% ngannou has his flaws but he is very good at using pull counters vs looping overhands/hooks. See corpses of overeem, JDS, rozenstruik,arlovski ect.

fedor likely gets ko’d in seconds in his first bullrush. Fedor’s TD’s are okay but they don’t work vs guys with good TD defense or near 300 pound guys(see HMC fight)

Similar story with Big nog, could potentially win if with sneaky sub if Ngannou gasses.

Crocop has a good Chance with leg/ body kicks but he leaves himself open often and its only gonna take 1 to shatter his questionable chin.

 

[kflo]

In Pride Werdum and Hunt weren't top contenders (though Hunt was more so than Wedum because of the Wand win), Josh was borderline with the 3 losses to Crocop and a 1-1 record against Nog ( the win being controversial), Randy likely doesn't do so well in that fishbowl without a cage.

Who knows how Arlovski does since he wasn't really facing much in the way of top competition in the UFC during the Pride days but he could have done alright.

Mir is the one UFC HW I always thought would have been interesting at the time though and would have been the biggest challenge to Fedor from the UFC stable.

Regardless though he probably still comes out of this undefeated (with an additional 3 top 10 wins) but an Aleks fight would have been out of the question and a Sergei fight would also be unlikely at the time but could have been interesting.

The rest of them definitely trade wins and losses though (as several of them did anyway) so I suppose their records could look slightly different.

they would have a combined .500 record against each other as a group. i don't agree he comes out undefeated if he's fighting through each of them fight after fight but we'll never know.

werdum beat aleks pretty easy in 2006.....

 

[BluntForceTrama]

Outside of the obvious 1 or 2, the rest would bring down the quality of The promotion and what it was known for

 

[KeyboardFighter]

Its not just the UFC the hype comes from of course, fighters and gyms push it as well. Across sport as a whole you will rarely see acknowledgement of decline, the difference is in other sports this is viewed as more sportsmen hyping themselves up, its only in MMA that a relative lack of knowledge and a single promoter dominating how fans view the sport that it can successfully be pushed as the truth. Its the marketing tactic that never loses, older fighters losing is a sure sign that todays product is the best ever.

Thats not to say nobody ever improves with age of a course, I think Overeem is an example of that happening although alot of it was more sideways revolution, Econoreem was a better distance striker than he ever had been before but wasnt nearly as good a grappler/clinch fighter.

As I said the giveaway should be watching the sport, HW in recent years how often have you come away from a fight thinking? dam that was a great technical match or even that was a great technical finish? it hardly ever happens anymore(Reems finish of JDS actually one of the last great HW stoppages IMHO), its a division of glaring errors and weaknesses these days and yet this is sposed to be evolved? some magical evolution that actually looks worse technically?

I would say what we have seen is a decent level of training is more widespread than in the Pride era but I'm not sure the elite level is any better and at HW I think the talent base is significantly worse. The ability to create a good amount of so so fighters isnt that impressive to me, not something I find great to watch.

I totally agree with you about the overt hype about the various evolution of athletes and whatnot. Bigger and stronger thing, seems to be more of an American thing though. Bigger and stronger is always better in the US of A, it seems. Don't really know what has happened with your culture to be so obsessed with huge and strong athletes, where it is the be all end all of sports.

But it's a huge difference with regards to MMA because of it being such a new sport, being only about 3 decades old if you start counting from the first UFC, disregarding luta livre etc. I mean of course the knowledge is going to evolve continiously. It would be weird otherwise. Guys like bas rutten had to jump from gym to gym to get the right expertise to evolve his game. And dudes like ken shamrock at the lions den pretty much went by with just wraasssling. Sure the next generation of fighters like Fedor brought a more complete game from the start, but they still had to holes in their game and had to seek out various help to evolve their game. Now you get the complete MMA package just joining any big MMA gym.

I also think you are conflicting the decline of the HW division with the overall decline of MMA. I think it was only PRIDE that put the HW as its premier division. So naturally, HW talents are going to be drawn and the division is going to blossom, just because of PRIDE putting in the money for it.

 

[moreorless87]

I think MMA fans aren't familiar with age declines because, in the past, they were overshadowed by the fast evolution of the sport. Yeah, Hughes really did fall off a cliff in his 30s. Even so, the guys that killed him when he was falling off the cliff would have killed him (GSP, Penn) or given him really tough fights (Koscheck) in his prime too. The next generation really, actually were that much better. So it was easy to say the next generation guys were just better and not notice Hughes' age decline, because they were actually just better than prime Hughes too.

Likewise, Hughes and Gracie. Was Gracie a physically shot and old fighter by that fight? Yeah. But Hughes vs Gracie from UFC 3 would have looked the same. So it was easy to ignore Gracie's decline with age because in the scheme of the sport's fast evolution, it didn't even matter.

The sport's evolution isn't that fast anymore and decline with age is obvious and unarguable now. The fact that so many top HWs are near 40 is a sad state of affairs given that knowledge.

That said, you gotta recognize that the sport still HAS evolved since Fedor. His skiillset would get him destroyed grappling at the top level now. Can you imagine trying to look for armbars from guard with guys like Ngannou, DC, and Jones on top of you? Or trying to get that sweep he had so much success against Nog and Herring with against Jones' hellbows? Or wasting all your energy to get mount, where upon you just immediately reversed nowadays?

I'd agree decline started to become more of a factor as evolution tailed off, of course how fast the sport was evolving(or devolving) was rather different per division, HW having money behind it earlier evolved faster, LHW and LW were probably closest behind.

How exactly would Fedor's skill set get him destroyed grappling wise now? HW to me seems like a grappling wasteland compared to its state at various points post millenium? who has Jones ever beaten who was that impressive off of their backs? he almost got subbed by Vitor of all people, if Fedor is on the end of that arm its going pop. Jones hellbowing someone like Vera who's consistently awful on his back isnt that impressive IMHO.

Also of course "hellbow Jones" is a fighter of yesteryear as well now isnt he? that time was closer to Fedors prime than the present day.

I totally agree with you about the overt hype about the various evolution of athletes and whatnot. Bigger and stronger thing, seems to be more of an American thing though. Bigger and stronger is always better in the US of A, it seems. Don't really know what has happened with your culture to be so obsessed with huge and strong athletes, where it is the be all end all of sports.

But it's a huge difference with regards to MMA because of it being such a new sport, being only about 3 decades old if you start counting from the first UFC, disregarding luta livre etc. I mean of course the knowledge is going to evolve continiously. It would be weird otherwise. Guys like bas rutten had to jump from gym to gym to get the right expertise to evolve his game. And dudes like ken shamrock at the lions den pretty much went by with just wraasssling. Sure the next generation of fighters like Fedor brought a more complete game from the start, but they still had to holes in their game and had to seek out various help to evolve their game. Now you get the complete MMA package just joining any big MMA gym.

I also think you are conflicting the decline of the HW division with the overall decline of MMA. I think it was only PRIDE that put the HW as its premier division. So naturally, HW talents are going to be drawn and the division is going to blossom, just because of PRIDE putting in the money for it.

MMA is a sport thats made of up skills from other sports of course, it does have some unique elements but Fedor was arguably the greatest MMA fighter at those aspects, the best GnP, one of the best at transitions from grappling to striking(with GSP), striking highly focused on MMA effectiveness(which sambo probably helped with).

 

[PalmStrike]

the problem with discussions like this is that guys like you actually believe this.....

Or its guys that refuse to see Francis for what he is...a brute with NO CLUE how to use the techniques taught to him.

 

[SandaKicker]

he almost got subbed by Vitor of all people.

Weidman and Jacare both went through Belfort’s guard like a knife through butter.

 

[SandaKicker]

Fedor’s TD’s are okay but they don’t work vs guys with good TD defense or near 300 pound guys(see HMC fight).

Worked out ok vs Schilt, not sure what he weighed in at for that fight but he’s been over 300 pounds before.

 

[moreorless87]

Weidman and Jacare both went through Belfort’s guard like a knife through butter.

Far too many modern fighters have there sub defence hyped up without ever having had to engage a truly dangerous sub fighter IMHO. BJJ/No Gi having so much money in it has really limited the amount of talent moving across I would say.

Khabib to me has made a nonsense of "evolved" grappling, he's shown it up to be a lot of cheap exploits using the cage and giving up your back to stand up that don't work again an elite grappler who can counter them. So many opponents only know these cheap moves, they don't have a real base to use and so there totally clueless against him.

 

[Mamou]

Lewis might not ever make it to the top but he’d literally be a Black Beast wrecking PRIDE contenders all day pumped full of beast juice.

He'd be considered a can by the UFC fans

 

[kflo]

Or its guys that refuse to see Francis for what he is...a brute with NO CLUE how to use the techniques taught to him.

amazing that you see it, but his opponents don't.

i'm sure james thompson would be 15-3 right now against ngannou's opponents......

 

[Mamou]

Nostalgias a hell of a thing.

So is recency bias...

 

[Mamou]

OHhhh and imagine comparing guys on massive amount of steroids to guys that have to go under USADA testing.

Like the 2010 UFC WW division vs the 2020 UFC WW division?

 

[Mamou]

Jon Jones at heavyweight would benefit from it too. He would actually be able to really fuck people up on the ground that are much bigger than him with knees in his wrestling.

No elbows

 

[po_thead]

I'm just speaking the truth.

Truth, delusional fantasy hater buffoonery, what's the diff?

 

[ThunderStruck]

That's why you cannot be the best across all weight classes.

Fedor isn't the best accross all weight classes. He'd get raped at 170 and under via missing limbs to make weight.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

So is recency bias...

It's not recency if it's been over 14 years since the organization ended.