How good is Mackenzie Dern compared to a male BJJ guy?

[Esile]

Its nice to think that and that there is a replicable formula for winning such as duck under, take the back, get a takedown and back control and go for a choke that even a small highly trained female could use to beat a larger man but there are too many variables to say it would happen regularly.

In my experience most clueless people let you take their back very easily, so I believe it would happen quite regularly in my opinion.
In addition to the real fights I have grappled/sparred with bigger, stronger, more athletic untrained friends many times for fun, and it almost always followed the same pattern.

Shoot for a single or double takedown attempt or go gor a double underhook clinch takedown > if it works good, if they are able to stuff it instincitvely they still leave huge opening for the back in the process.

But if it fails you have plenty of other options and back up plan, that's just the easiest path for victory but if it failed it doesn't mean an high level female grappler is going to be toast.

Even is she ends up on the bottom there are proven and pretty reliable ways to survive the ground and pound attempt of someone much bigger and stronger, stay safe until he gas and eventually turn the table (single leg x sweeps to leg locks transition if he stands up being the most effective imho), this assuming she train MMA or self defense BJJ and not just butt scooting sport BJJ like I specified earlier.

People can still instinctively protect and power out for the first minute or two at least even if she somehow got the back but most likely it would be like a flag in the wind hanging of his back on the feet and then getting thrown off.

I also had a 200 + lbs guy stand-up with me on his back in a fight, I removed my hooks and went back to the rear clinch, he trashed around for a bit with me staying glued to him, than I rear double leg and made him fall, he landed an all fours and I jumped on his back again and this time locked the choke.
With the choke locked I was able to prevent a second stand-up attempt by yanking backwards on his neck.

I'm saying that it's what is going to happen everytime in detail? Of course not.

It's just an example to illustrate the more general point that a trained grappler who remain lucid and calm has plenty of options to keep control of the situation and not end up in bad spot when the other guy stand up from back control, even if there is a very big size and strengh difference.

You doing it as a guy is still athletically and strength wise still far beyond the average female blackbelt even as just a 130 teenager. It would be nice to think a female could replicate though and I agree that this is roughly the formula she should use in 1 v 1 self defence, and learn a solid right hook would also be a good idea.
.

Far beyond the average hobbyst female black belt? Yes, absolutely.

But if we are talking about high level female athletes that also does strenght and condition training, which is pretty much the point of the debate since it started talking about Mckienze Dern, I'm sure you can find many of them who are not very far from how I was or even superior.
I believe you are understimating how wide the individuals differences among females are, they are not all weak and slow like the average girl, I never met an high level female grappling competitor but I have met good level female athletes in other sports unrelated to fighting and they are insanely far beyond your average girl as far as strenght, speed and coordination go.
I'm pretty sure an high level female athlete with grappling training should be able to replicate what I did just the same.

 

[Esile]

It's not futile in fact there was evidence posted of cases where the female choked out the potential rapist.
So clearly it is great for them to have skills I think a female should probably get to bluebelt. But I strongly disagree that there is any evidence a highly trained female could consistently defeat a strong untrained man in a fight situation or would generally be favoured. To think so is giving them a false sense of security.

I think that's a problem easily avoidable by having them test their skill once in a while against big and strong untrained men in an mma-like setting, if their objective is self defense.
The guys don't need to go all out with strikes and risk hurting them, if the females are not able to avoid being putted in position where they could receive powerful strikes or being slammed than it mean they are not ready for a real fight.
To simulate slam you have them lift the women without actually slamming of course,

You are right when you say there is no actual clear cut evidence, it's something that should be pressure tested more in my opinion.

 

[560ti]

It's not even that rare (altough not the norm) to see female wrestler beat male wrestler in their same weight classes in high school, and those girls are usually very, very, very far from world class wrestler let alone from world class submission grapplers.

To be fair those stories are almost always extremely misleading. The last female wrestler they hyped that did that was in the smallest attendance bracket and was facing a male that was 3 grades younger than her (she essentially won a state title in an attendance/weight bracket that had less than 20 serious wrestlers competing in it)

She would get smoke by any competitive black or brown hell even purple male, specially no gi...

Agreed. Old team-mate of mine got knocked out in the first round of worlds at purple belt and he had 6 years of BJJ experience and had wrestled club since 7th grade. He easily beats Dern and he's not even an elite purple (he's very very good but not world class)

 

[QingTian]

Not sure why this thread is so long now, but what is missed that it's not just the strength difference, but that most competitors' skill has been developed around beating people near their own attributes. So me as a typical male is not just going against a high level but weaker female, but one whose skill is effectively diminished as well.

Basically my experience was that by the time I was brown belt in Judo and blue belt in BJJ, even women who medaled nationally could not beat me (in both sports). That's not a knock on their skill, it's simply just a thing.

 

[kpoz12]

I lost to Lauren Phillips in Ultimate Surrender.

 

[Kforcer]

I lost to Lauren Phillips in Ultimate Surrender.

So, are you going to make everyone Google what that is or are you gonna explain the joke you SOB? I have a feeling your post is still funny, regardless. There's no way that "Ultimate Surrender" is the name of a BJJ circuit or promotion.

 

[RemyR]

This thread:

 

[kpoz12]

So, are you going to make everyone Google what that is or are you gonna explain the joke you SOB? I have a feeling your post is still funny, regardless. There's no way that "Ultimate Surrender" is the name of a BJJ circuit or promotion.

No shame, Lauren has actually beaten a lot of guys; she a killer on the mat.

 

[Kforcer]

No shame, Lauren has actually beaten a lot of guys; she a killer on the mat.

Is this a real thing? Your delivery is so deadpan I can never tell when you are messing around or serious.

 

[Esile]

Is this a real thing? Your delivery is so deadpan I can never tell when you are messing around or serious.

It's as real as Rickson 400-0 record.

 

[Kforcer]

It's as real as Rickson 400-0 record.

Well, that clears it up.

 

[ChickenBrother]

"Ultimate Surrender" is the name of a BJ circuit or promotion.

Either sadly or hilariously, it appears to be more real than Rickson's record. Good thing I didn't google it on my work laptop.

 

[TheMaster]

Either sadly or hilariously, it appears to be more real than Rickson's record. Good thing I didn't google it on my work laptop.

That's the problem with talking about wmma or grappling. Doesn't take long for the conversation to degenerate to this.

 

[TheMaster]

I think that's a problem easily avoidable by having them test their skill once in a while against big and strong untrained men in an mma-like setting, if their objective is self defense.
The guys don't need to go all out with strikes and risk hurting them, if the females are not able to avoid being putted in position where they could receive powerful strikes or being slammed than it mean they are not ready for a real fight.
To simulate slam you have them lift the women without actually slamming of course,

You are right when you say there is no actual clear cut evidence, it's something that should be pressure tested more in my opinion.

Yes, that should be done more so a realistic view can be had.
Right now there are the usual majority who dismiss the idea a female can do anything against a man and a smaller group who think elite females would consistently beat untrained men in a fight.
The truth is somewhere between.

 

[winterbike]

That's the problem with talking about wmma or grappling. Doesn't take long for the conversation to degenerate to this.

Hey leave Rickson alone!

 

[yetanother]

Yes, that should be done more so a realistic view can be had.
Right now there are the usual majority who dismiss the idea a female can do anything against a man and a smaller group who think elite females would consistently beat untrained men in a fight.
The truth is somewhere between.

There are videos of women destroying untrained dudes in fights, its not a majority opinion.

 

[sb413197]

By the way those were the Elizabeth Clay matches I was talking about just in case someone may be interested, I also watched a couple more but I was not able to find them:





Also the ones she lost:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_JIv6qcjbI

I think as more women become proficient at the leglock game you'll see the top women being more competitive with average upper level (not necessarily top competitor) dudes. Interesting that BJJ kind of shunned leglocks for so long, they may be the best way to deal with a less skilled opponent with a big strength advantage, particularly if that person is a wrestler.

 

[sb413197]

And any other format of fighting/MMA/Judo/Wrestling it's not like that either and I still see a strong guy with minimal training as giving any elite female grappler a very hard time.

Depending on how strong you're talking about, I agree, but to go further than that I see the super super strong (world class strongman etc) giving most high level MEN a hard time. Not the absolute highest level guys like Gordon Ryan etc (who is a physical beast in his own right) but a lot of them for sure.

I would guess that over the next 10 years we'll see the average strength of grapplers continue to increase. It's such a huge advantage.

 

[TheMaster]

I think as more women become proficient at the leglock game you'll see the top women being more competitive with average upper level (not necessarily top competitor) dudes. Interesting that BJJ kind of shunned leglocks for so long, they may be the best way to deal with a less skilled opponent with a big strength advantage, particularly if that person is a wrestler.

Again,maybe in pure sport BJJ the top elite women could be more competetive with intermediate level guys and larger hobbyists.

Leglocks were shunned for a long time because although they existed in
Kodokan Judo they;

-Can lead to injury easily with little warning
- are much more risky for self defence or fights with strikes which is what GJJ is about.

So not the priority for reliable tactics for protecting oneself.

Of course we know now, which maybe should've been obvious that practicing strangles and chokes are far more dangerous potentially but for general practice this was not the common view.

 

[Esile]

Again,maybe in pure sport BJJ the top elite women could be more competetive with intermediate level guys and larger hobbyists.

Leglocks were shunned for a long time because although they existed in
Kodokan Judo they;

-Can lead to injury easily with little warning
- are much more risky for self defence or fights with strikes which is what GJJ is about.

So not the priority for reliable tactics for protecting oneself.

Of course we know now, which maybe should've been obvious that practicing strangles and chokes are far more dangerous potentially but for general practice this was not the common view.

To be fair leg locks have a very good track record for submitting massive guys twice the size of the opponent in MMA, and in a time where stomp and soccer kicks were also allowed.

I believe the reason the Gracie's shunned them it's partly because the leglock game at their time was massively underveloped, and for this reason it was not suited for a real fight.
The modern leglock systems are much better for keeping control of the opponent and avoid getting hit or losing position.
Of course falling back for leglocks if you are on top would still be very dumb, but if you end on the bottom they could be extremely effective for neutralizing strikes, sweeping a much larger/stronger opponent and turning the table.

I'm pretty sure Royce would have loved to know some modern open guard sweep into leg lock stuff when Kimo was standing inside his open guard and beating him up.