Social Major study finds Gender Affirming Care has no significant effect on suicide rate

[Loiosh]

Not only that. He thinks only conservatives have doubts.

What?

 

[Bob Gray]

Conservatives don't give a flying fuck about kids. They hate gay and trans people, full stop. The further right you are, the more you hate them. They use "protection of children" to attack normalization of those communities.

There are difficult decisions made in the treatment of trans kids. These aren't taken lightly, and they should be in the hands of doctors, parents and the kids, not politicians.

If studies come out that prove a treatment is harmful or ineffective, I'll definitely listen, and more importantly doctors and therapists will listen. They will become part of the decision making process presented to parents and their kids.

What I'll completely ignore is the conservative take on every study they amplify to interfere with these decisions, because they absolutely can't be trusted to present a fair and balanced perspective.

That's completely nonsense that conservatives hate trans people. C'mon, now. The exact same argument can be used against the left (or at least they don't give a fuck about anything other than the money they can generate off of them) but it's just as empty and meaningless.

Again, it isn't politicians that are reviewing these things and saying "Hey, let's wait a second...". There are doctors and professionals saying it. This isn't Ted Cruz here.

The doctors are already listening and changing their approach. It's not a coincidence that the WHO has completely abandoned recommending these procedures for minors. Conservatives haven't taken over anything.

 

[kflo]

Yes, in some cases the government (ie, society since we participate in deciding who makes up the government) makes certain rules that prohibit what can be done to children--even by physicians and their parents.

On what basis? The politicians know better? Are better informed?

 

[Lucas1980]

Special treatment. Right. Like the kid who was beaten half to death in a washroom because the law said they had to use it or face sanction. That kind of special treatment?

Way to pick out a small isolated instance......Overall Transformers receive more special treatment than any other group that suffers from mental disorders. They aren't oppressed in any way shape or form.

 

[koquerelle]

What?

I might have interpreted your posts wrong, but you seem to always point to conservatives who have objections. Plenty of liberals have doubts/questions about puberty blocker and I haven't noticed you mention them in your arguments.

I have no conservative friends and close family members. I'd say half them have doubts about blockers because we don't have enough info. You might have talked about their/my doubts, but I didn't see it.

 

[Andy Capp]

Way to pick out a small isolated instance......Overall Transformers receive more special treatment than any other group that suffers from mental disorders. They aren't oppressed in any way shape or form.

But I've been told today ITT that anecdotes are data. Not anymore? What twaddle.

 

[mkess101]

On what basis? The politicians know better? Are better informed?

On what basis do we ever have any laws that prohibit what can be done to children?

 

[Loiosh]

I might have interpreted your posts wrong, but you seem to always point to conservatives who have objections. Plenty of liberals have doubts/questions about puberty blocker and I haven't noticed you mention them in your arguments.

I have no conservative friends and close family members. I'd say half them have doubts about blockers because we don't have enough info. You might have talked about their/my doubts, but I didn't see it.

Why do you think that is? Do you guys know kids who might be potentially using blockers and their parents discussed them with you?

Considering how few kids take blockers and how personal a decision it is, I'm curious how the topic came up with half your friends and family. I've discussed this issue exactly zero times with my family and I have a trans nephew.

Maybe that isn't a fair question. My family has never discussed this kind of issue or pretty much anything in the news, maybe yours is more politically active.

The point behind the question is that in the media, the issue is being framed almost exclusively by the right. Whatever doubts your family has almost certainly comes from conservative media, and they've been 100% against it since the beginning.

I sent you a video a while back about a story that ran wild with conservatives and managed to convince liberals as well. Turns out it was all a lie, but that fact reached a tiny fraction of the original audience. Anti-trans legislation was created on the back of that fake story.

I'm on record having doubts or outright disagreeing with certain trans issues, like competing in sports or sharing bathrooms. I think those issues should be discussed but compromise from the norm has to be handled carefully.

I am less open about interfering with medical procedures and deciding on behalf of doctors and parents. The vast majority of people have been educated on the subject by people who desperately want it to go away.

Ask yourself why you think blockers are dangerous. They've been used for decades, the risks are known and can be managed. Look into the risks and consequences in cold and flu medications for kids, those blow blockers out of the water (they actually kill people). Why aren't parents screaming to ban those?

 

[kflo]

On what basis do we ever have any laws that prohibit what can be done to children?

usually on the basis of experts.........not against them.......

 

[Loiosh]

Way to pick out a small isolated instance......Overall Transformers receive more special treatment than any other group that suffers from mental disorders. They aren't oppressed in any way shape or form.

Weird that you'd post this on a forum where all you think you have to do to win an argument is post a picture of a silly looking trans person to demonstrate the failure of America.

 

[Loiosh]

That's completely nonsense that conservatives hate trans people. C'mon, now. The exact same argument can be used against the left (or at least they don't give a fuck about anything other than the money they can generate off of them) but it's just as empty and meaningless.

Again, it isn't politicians that are reviewing these things and saying "Hey, let's wait a second...". There are doctors and professionals saying it. This isn't Ted Cruz here.

The doctors are already listening and changing their approach. It's not a coincidence that the WHO has completely abandoned recommending these procedures for minors. Conservatives haven't taken over anything.

I don't have the energy to argue about these things as we already have many times, but I'd be interested in knowing more about this decision from the WHO. I haven't seen anything about it.

 

[mkess101]

usually on the basis of experts.........not against them.......

So the fact the the experts in England for example have halted the use, that matters to you? Those experts count, correct? They've decided they don't have near enough info to know if it's safe or not.

Which experts should we believe?

 

[kflo]

So the fact the the experts in England for example have halted the use, that matters to you? Those experts count, correct? They've decided they don't have near enough info to know if it's safe or not.

Which experts should we believe?

they haven't halted the use. they've required them to be part of clinical trial as a condition for treatment. so it's safe enough for them to allow treatment, they just want to be able to track the results of the treatment.

 

[mkess101]

they haven't halted the use. they've required them to be part of clinical trial as a condition for treatment. so it's safe enough for them to allow treatment, they just want to be able to track the results of the treatment.

England's NHS halts puberty blockers for transgender youth amid research efforts

England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty blockers for the treatment of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence in minors.

abcnews.go.com

Read the quote from the NHS spokesperson.

"We have concluded there isn't enough evidence to support safety and clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available..."

I err on the side of "If some experts aren't sure about the safety, (esp enough to where they are making large scale policy decisions like this), don't give the shit to kids". Crazy, I know.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

England's NHS halts puberty blockers for transgender youth amid research efforts

England's National Health Service has banned the use of puberty blockers for the treatment of gender dysphoria or gender incongruence in minors.

abcnews.go.com

Read the quote from the NHS spokesperson.

"We have concluded there isn't enough evidence to support safety and clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones to make the treatment routinely available..."

I err on the side of "If some experts aren't sure about the safety, (esp enough to where they are making large scale policy decisions like this), don't give the shit to kids". Crazy, I know.

owned

 

[Lucas1980]

owned

And It was just looking like all sanity in England at this point was gone but then they do something sane and reasonable like that...Kudos to England.

 

[Super_Nintendo]

It's still not a fucking movement. It's a medical issue

it's an activist led movement designed to brainwash children into the left cult. none of the NPCs supporting this even knew what any of this was before it exploded 5 years ago.

it's a social contagion for most and a mental illness for the rest and the solution is psychotherapy not surgery, hormones, or puberty blockers. puberty is not a medical disease that needs treatment (inb4 "precocious puberty!").

 

[Andy Capp]

it's an activist led movement designed to brainwash children into the left cult. none of the NPCs supporting this even knew what any of this was before it exploded 5 years ago.

it's a social contagion for most and a mental illness for the rest and the solution is psychotherapy not surgery, hormones, or puberty blockers. puberty is not a medical disease that needs treatment (inb4 "precocious puberty!").

 

[Bob Gray]

I don't have the energy to argue about these things as we already have many times, but I'd be interested in knowing more about this decision from the WHO. I haven't seen anything about it.

Yeah, western media has largely ignored it. But heres the actual update from the WHO itself as opposed to other sites posting it, which are admittedly right leaning.

https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/hq-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-library/tgd_faq_16012024.pdf?sfvrsn=79eaf57f_1

One of the big takeaways:

5. Why will the guideline only cover adults and not also children or adolescents?

• The scope will cover adults only and not address the needs of children and adolescents, because on review, the evidence base for children and adolescents is limited and variable regarding the longer-term outcomes of gender affirming care for children and adolescents.

Honestly, Lo, like I said earlier, the pendulum is starting to swing the other way. Thats probably a good thing overall. I know you want to say conservatives hate trans, but thats BS and beneath you. That paints everyone in "good guy" and "bad guy" camps and then people wont argue the actual point, because they're arguing from a moral stance and not an empirical one. Instead of defending trans people, they defend themselves as the "good guys", because if it turns out theyre wrong, then they were the "bad guys" all along. Thats not a mentality I'm pursuing.

 

[mkess101]

He's right though, its clear that a significant portion of the conservative movement has a deep disdain for queers like trans and gays and that this motivates their policymaking in regards to thing like gender affirming care.

#notall of course but the ones who don't will rarely, if ever, push back against the ones who do publicly.

I do think there's a certain subset who simply view trans people as an abomination, and not worthy of respect or courtesy. I don't think that's the prominent thought process of conservatives though.