Chinese virus from a Wuhan laboratory?

[MicroBrew]

How shitty is the scientist researcher that got infected at the lab if that's what happened lets say?

It's not unheard of for pathogens to escape.

The Marburg virus infected lab workers who were handling / studying African green monkeys. But this was in 1967.

A US government team that visited the Wuhan lab in 2018 warned that it lacked adequate safety regimen and measures. China is way behind the West and Japan in safety and know-how. The Wuhan lab was built by the Chinese with French technical help.

Marburg virus was first recognized in 1967, when outbreaks of hemorrhagic fever occurred simultaneously in laboratories in Marburg and Frankfurt, Germany and in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). Thirty-one people became ill, initially laboratory workers followed by several medical personnel and family members who had cared for them. Seven deaths were reported. The first people infected had been exposed to imported African green monkeys or their tissues while conducting research. One additional case was diagnosed retrospectively.


The reservoir host of Marburg virus is the African fruit bat, Rousettus aegyptiacus. Fruit bats infected with Marburg virus do not to show obvious signs of illness. Primates (including humans) can become infected with Marburg virus, and may develop serious disease with high mortality. Further study is needed to determine if other species may also host the virus.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/marburg/index.html

 

[The Audience]

The biggest thing about this scenario is how it is being portrayed.

The "conspiracy" is always tied together by two premises. That the Virus was Bio-engineered. And that the Virus came from a Wuhan lab.

Those two premises were ALWAYS tied together in the "debunk" or "dismissal" arguments.

There are ways to tell if a virus is engineered. there's telltale signs in the virus's genetic code.

But there's no fucking way to tell if the virus came from a dead bat in a meat market, or a bat in a testing lab.

This is why the "Conspiracy" debunkers add the premise that the Virus is bio-engineered. This way they can dismiss the claims of a lab escape, while not actually having evidence to back that claim.

I agree its disingenuous to equate both bioweapon and lab escape theories together in an attempt to dismiss both, however this may be due in part to a shift in the position of some of those who are convinced of the lab origin theory, from bioweapon to lab escape once the bioweapon theory was discredited. I think an honest discussion should include all possibilities until they are convincingly ruled out. However, the weight that is given to these explanations should also be determined by the evidence that supports them, and no other motivation.

 

[ocean size]

This goes beyond anything I said and you're just making up a bunch of garbage you assume other people would say. Like I said, we have a breakout every few years. Swine flu, bird flu, influenza, SARS, MERS, Ebola... we've had all of those this century. There'll be some other weird thing that comes out of China or some jungle in Africa in 4 or 5 years too and millions of people will get infected with those diseases, just like they did with the previous outbreaks. We know they are going to happen because w do nothing to stop these outbreaks from popping out of the same places over and over again. Too PC.
We've actually been more successful slowing down Covid19 than we were many of those others. We don't recognize an outbreak as and outbreak until its, you know, an outbreak but we know they're going to happen every half decade or so. In 5 years, I can bump this thread and say "I told you so! Didn't I warn everyone?"

Which is why a bioweapon CT is not necessary to make a zoonotic respiratory viral epidemic out of China plausible or parsimonious. That was the doctors point.

 

[ocean size]

But there's no fucking way to tell if the virus came from a dead bat in a meat market, or a bat in a testing lab.

Well, depending how well they've been tracking natural coronaviruses and I think its pretty well, if the closest relative are bats that are known to make it into the market vs species that don't and live far no where geographically close, there is pretty good support for a market origin. If the closest relative is a strain that hasn't been maintained in the lab, that's good support for a non-lab origin.

IIRC the working theory is still a virus that was semi-recently in the bat reservoir but hopped through an intermediate host pre-human. It was 96% similar to the bat coronavirus but that 4% as one of the scientists said, could be a decade or more of evolution. So kinda tough to say, a bat may not have been part of the story for a long time.

But I doubt too many people in the public right now would believe China if they say this strain was unknown and not present in the lab.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Well, depending how well they've been tracking natural coronaviruses and I think its pretty well, if the closest relative are bats that are known to make it into the market vs species that don't and live far no where geographically close, there is pretty good support for a market origin. If the closest relative is a strain that hasn't been maintained in the lab, that's good support for a non-lab origin.

IIRC the working theory is still a virus that was semi-recently in the bat reservoir but hopped through an intermediate host pre-human. It was 96% similar to the bat coronavirus but that 4% as one of the scientists said, could be a decade or more of evolution. So kinda tough to say, a bat may not have been part of the story for a long time.

But I doubt too many people in the public right now would believe China if they say this strain was unknown and not present in the lab.

What was up with the French guy saying there was evidence of HIV and malaria components to the virus that made natural genesis unlikely?

Seems hard to square that with the 96% similarity described above (which is what I was basing most of my belief in the wet market theory on) unless the shared components are really miniscule.

EDIT: French, not British guy.

 

[The Audience]

What was up with the British guy saying there was evidence of HIV and malaria components to the virus that made natural genesis unlikely?

Seems hard to square that with the 96% similarity described above, which is what I was basing most of my belief in the wet market theory on.

That report was withdrawn and has been discredited by an HIV virus specialist:

"There are also rumours that the SARS-CoV-2 was artificially, or intentionally, made by humans in the lab, and this is highlighted in one manuscript submitted to BioRxiv (a manuscript sharing site prior to any peer review), claiming that SARS- CoV-2 has HIV sequence in it and was thus likely generated in the laboratory. In a rebuttal paper led by an HIV-1 virologist Dr. Feng Gao, they used careful bioinformatics analyses to demonstrate that the original claim of multiple HIV insertions into the SARS-CoV-2 is not HIV-1 specific but random [15]. Because of the many concerns raised by the international community, the authors who made the initial claim have already withdrawn this report."
Source

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

That report was withdrawn and has been discredited by an HIV virus specialist:

"There are also rumours that the SARS-CoV-2 was artificially, or intentionally, made by humans in the lab, and this is highlighted in one manuscript submitted to BioRxiv (a manuscript sharing site prior to any peer review), claiming that SARS- CoV-2 has HIV sequence in it and was thus likely generated in the laboratory. In a rebuttal paper led by an HIV-1 virologist Dr. Feng Gao, they used careful bioinformatics analyses to demonstrate that the original claim of multiple HIV insertions into the SARS-CoV-2 is not HIV-1 specific but random [15]. Because of the many concerns raised by the international community, the authors who made the initial claim have already withdrawn this report."
Source

Thanks, had a feeling that one was a crock of shit.

 

[hypocalking]

It's not unheard of for pathogens to escape.

The Marburg virus infected lab workers who were handling / studying African green monkeys. But this was in 1967.

A US government team that visited the Wuhan lab in 2018 warned that it lacked adequate safety regimen and measures. China is way behind the West and Japan in safety and know-how. The Wuhan lab was built by the Chinese with French technical help.

Marburg virus was first recognized in 1967, when outbreaks of hemorrhagic fever occurred simultaneously in laboratories in Marburg and Frankfurt, Germany and in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). Thirty-one people became ill, initially laboratory workers followed by several medical personnel and family members who had cared for them. Seven deaths were reported. The first people infected had been exposed to imported African green monkeys or their tissues while conducting research. One additional case was diagnosed retrospectively.


The reservoir host of Marburg virus is the African fruit bat, Rousettus aegyptiacus. Fruit bats infected with Marburg virus do not to show obvious signs of illness. Primates (including humans) can become infected with Marburg virus, and may develop serious disease with high mortality. Further study is needed to determine if other species may also host the virus.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/marburg/index.html

Crazy!!

 

[ocean size]

What was up with the French guy saying there was evidence of HIV and malaria components to the virus that made natural genesis unlikely?

Seems hard to square that with the 96% similarity described above (which is what I was basing most of my belief in the wet market theory on) unless the shared components are really miniscule.

EDIT: French, not British guy.

There was a preprint with the HIV theory from Indian authors, it got torn to shreds. I hadn't heard of Luc Montagnier's comments until googling after your comment.

You are right, shared components are tiny - The genome of SARS-CoV-2 is 29,811 nucleotides long. These are the shared components (well kinda shared, see below)- each letter is a three nucleotide codon.
Insertion 1 TNGTKR Insertion 2 HKNNKS Insertion 3 RSYLTPGDSSSG Insertion 4 QTNSPRRA

This paper explains - some of the interesting sequences in SARS-CoV-2 are indeed similar to those found in some HIV-1 samples, but they were more similar to sequences from genes in a whole shitload of different animals and single cell organisms and a couple natural coronaviruses. They also match sequences in a shitload of other viruses, too, ones that live in the ocean, infect bateria, etc.

And, while the first sequence does match HIV-1 quite well, being short it is more likely to be random. The longer sequences- 3 is a weak 66% match and 4 is a weaker match, and to multiple genes in HIV. So multiple strong lines of evidence it is coincidence, esp when all 4 insertion sequences are perfect matches for wild CoV strains in the database.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033698/

Preprint I mentioned that put the theory forward:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v2 <- withdrawn by authors

These preprints usually aren't an issue because people recognise them as not peer reviewed, but with COVID-19 each shithead with a half baked idea or wanting to make a name is putting one up and they get picked up by the press and the public who don't realise that anyone can put anything up with very, very little oversight.

As for Luc Montagnier, I don't know much about him but I get James Watson vibes - did brilliant work a long time ago, but he's now 87, not working in the field so has no topical insight, believes in weird shit like homeopathy. To the charge that there are HIV sequences in it, he also added on that is was a Wuhan lab escapee that was supposed to be an AIDS vaccine, which is going beyond any evidence you would get from the actual data. i.e. adding conspiracy theory details makes me think it is even less likely that he had some evidence to support the claim because that's going well beyond what any data could actually confirm.

 

[ocean size]

It's not unheard of for pathogens to escape.

The Marburg virus infected lab workers who were handling / studying African green monkeys. But this was in 1967.

A US government team that visited the Wuhan lab in 2018 warned that it lacked adequate safety regimen and measures. China is way behind the West and Japan in safety and know-how. The Wuhan lab was built by the Chinese with French technical help.

Marburg virus was first recognized in 1967, when outbreaks of hemorrhagic fever occurred simultaneously in laboratories in Marburg and Frankfurt, Germany and in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). Thirty-one people became ill, initially laboratory workers followed by several medical personnel and family members who had cared for them. Seven deaths were reported. The first people infected had been exposed to imported African green monkeys or their tissues while conducting research. One additional case was diagnosed retrospectively.


The reservoir host of Marburg virus is the African fruit bat, Rousettus aegyptiacus. Fruit bats infected with Marburg virus do not to show obvious signs of illness. Primates (including humans) can become infected with Marburg virus, and may develop serious disease with high mortality. Further study is needed to determine if other species may also host the virus.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/marburg/index.html

SARS has escaped from a Beijing lab four times. Not Wuhan tho.
https://thebulletin.org/2014/03/thr...aboratory-escapes-self-fulfilling-prophecies/

 

[superpunch]

It's not unheard of for pathogens to escape.

The Marburg virus infected lab workers who were handling / studying African green monkeys. But this was in 1967.

A US government team that visited the Wuhan lab in 2018 warned that it lacked adequate safety regimen and measures. China is way behind the West and Japan in safety and know-how. The Wuhan lab was built by the Chinese with French technical help.

Marburg virus was first recognized in 1967, when outbreaks of hemorrhagic fever occurred simultaneously in laboratories in Marburg and Frankfurt, Germany and in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). Thirty-one people became ill, initially laboratory workers followed by several medical personnel and family members who had cared for them. Seven deaths were reported. The first people infected had been exposed to imported African green monkeys or their tissues while conducting research. One additional case was diagnosed retrospectively.


The reservoir host of Marburg virus is the African fruit bat, Rousettus aegyptiacus. Fruit bats infected with Marburg virus do not to show obvious signs of illness. Primates (including humans) can become infected with Marburg virus, and may develop serious disease with high mortality. Further study is needed to determine if other species may also host the virus.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/marburg/index.html

The Soviets also had an anthrax outbreak (killed 100+ people), and also a smallpox outbreak. We had an anthrax outbreak in America in the mid 2000s. Smallpox has escaped from a few hospital labs in America before. SARS has escaped labs in China multiple times. This shit actually happens all the time. We were so lucky in the past that anthrax isn't contagious and smallpox has a vaccine. If this coronavirus broke out of a lab, we're lucky the death rate is "only" in the range of .3-3%. These labs around the world are a ticking time bomb. Eventually, something contagious and lethal is going to escape. We need to shut this shit down worldwide.

 

[The Audience]

The Soviets also had an anthrax outbreak (killed 100+ people), and also a smallpox outbreak. We had an anthrax outbreak in America in the mid 2000s. Smallpox has escaped from a few hospital labs in America before. SARS has escaped labs in China multiple times. This shit actually happens all the time. We were so lucky in the past that anthrax isn't contagious and smallpox has a vaccine. If this coronavirus broke out of a lab, we're lucky the death rate is "only" in the range of .3-3%. These labs around the world are a ticking time bomb. Eventually, something contagious and lethal is going to escape. We need to shut this shit down worldwide.

Shutting down the labs wont eliminate the potential next pandemic, but what it will do is severely hamper our efforts to combat it. The major pathogenic viruses in humans have mostly zoonotic origins and especially since the agricultural revolution. Global population rise puts pressure on food sources which encourages the use of intensive livestock farming and wild animal consumption. Additionally, it leads to the encroachment further into the territories of wild animals, removing natural barriers to their habitat. Both of these factors increase the human-animal interaction that leads to viruses jumping species. Reducing this interaction is the key to stopping these viruses jumping to us, whilst they continue to move around amongst animals. However, this scenario is unlikely due to the aforementioned population pressures, which means that the research that these labs do is vital in helping monitor animal populations for viruses that have the potential to cause high human infectivity.

 

[Oooxente]

No, there's no reason to think that is what happened and it just isn't at all logical to think scientists would do that.

I can't 100% discount that the sun won't rise tomorrow.

Look around for Chinese videos on YT from Laowhy86.
After that you will believe.

 

[ocean size]

Look around for Chinese videos on YT from Laowhy86.
After that you will believe.

A YouTube account will make me believe scientists put bats and pangolins in the corner of a lab together and now we have COVID-19? Because that specific scenario is what my post was replying to.

 

[Skarr]

welcome to the party! some of us have been on this since the outbreak began....theres a lot more to it than where it came from....

((not you in particular)) but perhaps there are some people that would like to revisit their overall thinking about this whole situation ....in light of this "new" information....but probably not .... most likely those people will have to wait until the narrative is spoonfed to them before they will realize the validity of it...much like they have up until now

 

[ShinkanPo]

WHO Han

 

[MicroBrew]

@ocean size @superpunch

Here is another case of a deadly pathogen escaping containment and killing a person.

Birmingham UK, 1978 - A woman was killed when she contracted smallpox in a building that housed a pathogen research lab.

But in 1978, the disease cropped back up — in Birmingham, in the United Kingdom. Janet Parker was a photographer at Birmingham Medical School. When she developed a horrifying rash, doctors initially brushed it off as chicken pox. After all, everyone knew that smallpox had been chased out of the world — right?

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu

 

[MicroBrew]

A YouTube account will make me believe scientists put bats and pangolins in the corner of a lab together and now we have COVID-19? Because that specific scenario is what my post was replying to.

The video doesn't say that.
It references publickly available information from Chinese scientists, academia and the Wuhan lab itself.

 

[floivanus]

Like this is new at all, again, no CT for all you “it was just natural” nutters out there.

https://nationalpost.com/news/a-bri...bs-70s-chinese-pandemic-was-a-lab-mistake/amp

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011184

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/fu...deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu

Again “from a lab” does NoT mean created in a lab, it means they had an oopsie that there’s precedent for.

 

[floivanus]

The video doesn't say that.
It references publickly available information from Chinese scientists, academia and the Wuhan lab itself.

I mean when there’s articles written by workers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology saying workers experienced symptoms, and two job postings looking for people to research bats immunity to coronaviruses and one saying we found “a new and terrible virus” there’s nothing but some schmuck reporting on nothing burgers in his basement.