Why Americans cant win International kickboxing

[msm1981]

Kickboxing is an umbrella term.

Obviously Muay Thai is a very distinct art form with Wai Kru, the monkgon, distinctive scoring etc but it's my impression thatJapanese Kickboxing (not K-1 style kickboxing) is quite similar to what many would call international muay thai. In some cases they're arguably closer to each other than international muay thai and stadium muay thai.

A lot of the fighters in "K-1 style kickboxing" have a muay thai background now either way. I'm just guessing now but i think most kickboxers from eastern europe started out as muay thai fighters? Probably the same stands true for scandinavia and france.

I know there are very few fighters who truly are kickboxing specialist since there is many different
rules packages depending on what style of it is being promoted (dutch,american,etc).

 

[-guerilla-]

Yeah the main point of this thread is precisely what you guys are touching on

there's a lot of different styles of kickboxing and the problem with the United States is that we've invented our own instead of participating in the world's establish styles

Of course actual Muay Thai is rare outside of Thailand so when I say
"International kickboxing"
I mean K1 rules

I personally consider Muay Thai to be by far the most effective striking art in human history however it needs a couple minor tweaks for MMA

 

[-guerilla-]

I wouldn't call Muay Thai international(k1 style) kickboxing. The rules are vastly different. There aren't many "legit" muay thai schools in the nation although it has got better recent years.
In terms of international kickboxing, I can only think of less than ten schools in America that teach that sport exclusively. How are you going to be a force in that sport if you don't even have a decent foundation in it. The same can be said in Muay Thai in America. There aren't many people who practice the sport vs somewhere like Thailand where they have around 60k professionals

No certainly not... Muay Thai is considerably different than International kickboxing

I vastly prefer Muay Thai as it translates better to MMA and that is my primary Style

The biggest thing International kickboxing misses is the dump sweep and slam theory of Muay Thai

 

[amok attitude]

there were a tiny handful throughout the entire country before Jean Claudes bloodsport and kickboxer movies

after that kickboxing surged into massive popularity for the next few years untill it was swallowed by MMA and has lived off the underbelly of MMA ever since... much like the sport of wrestling

(except wrestling was never popular)

Being raised in Hawaii i was exposed to MuayThai as a kid but had to move to the mainland where the only kickboxing available was PKA

I was driving an hour and a half to a boxing club in Indiana owned by American kickboxing founder Terry Middleton who had a few champions including wka world heavyweight Willam Abdul Jarvis and local heavyweight champ Matt Kitterman however it was mostly regular boxing and PKA Kickboxing

i was there for a few years untill i could build my own club 10 min from my home at the community center

it was terribly hard to find sparring partners as i had a long running ad in the newspaper and bargin mart and was lucky to get 3 or 4 guys at any session

A few of my buddies from highschool and i used to go to the community center and wrestled/kickbox after school

The next day after bloodsport/kickboxer hit (88/89) we filled up overnight and switched to MUAY Thai...

we had abouy 10/20 guys per session from then on!!!

A few years later UFC hit and we switched to NHB/MMA

Thats the birth of Louisville MMA fightclub

Very true about how everything evolved.

 

[-guerilla-]

Very true about how everything evolved.

It was a great ride

Amazing to see gyms pop up and fill up overnight

Billy blanks cashed in with tae bo and created the PHENOM of cardio kickboxing....

Ninja turtles and karate kid did the same thing for the kids programs

It was a PHENOMENAL era for martial arts

Americas failure to produce a single international champion sealed its fate for American television ratings and thus the sport died despite all the popularity in the world...we blew our one shot because we invented our own style instead of adopting established international sports and so our guys never developed the level of skill to make it work

Dennis alexio
Maurice smith
Rick and duke roufus
Peter Cunningham
I thought CERTAINLY Carter Williams was gonna get something done!

Just like American folkstyle wrestling we invented our own particular style of kickboxing and thus never developed the depth of skill to win the big tournaments

 

[amok attitude]

Rick Roufus - not his brother though- was pretty big in Europe.
Maybe till his bout in Marseille against Hoost, he was seen as extremly relevant.

 

[-guerilla-]

Rick Roufus - not his brother though- was pretty big in Europe.
Maybe till his bout in Marseille against Hoost, he was seen as extremly relevant.

Yeah i remembered that headkick!

Hoost was phenomenal in his revenge match

Got Maurice smith in similar fashion

Rick was dominant against American competition until carter Willams late in his career who was
"Leg kick" era American trained

Rick DOMINATED "PKA" American kickboxing

His brother, despite being leg kick era still struggled against international competition

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Roufus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Roufus

 

[eddi]

wasnt duke roufus 25 pounds heavier ? he got absolutely humiliated, at the same weight he gets eaten alive, no fucking comparison possible between the two fighters, he even dared to say its easy to spam low kicks it doesnt take any skills, just lmao at that failed bitter bitch. but yeah muay thai training is brutal and builds killing machines, its a shame the thai people are mostly light and small by nature otherwise we'd have some heavyweight monsters from there.

 

[-guerilla-]

wasnt duke roufus 25 pounds heavier ? he got absolutely humiliated, at the same weight he gets eaten alive, no fucking comparison possible between the two fighters, he even dared to say its easy to spam low kicks it doesnt take any skills, just lmao at that failed bitter bitch. but yeah muay thai training is brutal and builds killing machines, its a shame the thai people are mostly light and small by nature otherwise we'd have some heavyweight monsters from there.

Duke roufus had a real heavy overhand right but that was about it

I think he got lucky against stan Longinidis

 

[shincheckin]

The United States has a curious habit of inventing its own sports

sometimes this is really interesting and cool Sometimes this is a major handicap

In the sport of kickboxing it has been a devastating decision

Throughout the world kickboxing has a handful of primary Styles but they all revolve around the traditional King from Southeast Asia....
Muay Thai

Instead of adopting the internationally accepted styles America took kickboxing and created its own unique particular style

American kickboxing competitors were required to wear padding Across The Shins and feet and were disallowed from kicking to the legs or throwing knee techniques of any kind

This isn't a minor tweak like removing elbows as they do in Europe and Japan by disallowing leg kicks and knees you radically changed the sport and create a completely different style

It turns out the leg kicking and knee stye was wildly Superior when the two Styles went head-to-head and we learned the hard way

Here's of couple videos of some of the most dominant American kickboxers getting beat by they're leg kicking counterparts

to this day Americas still hasn't produced a dominant kickboxing champion in any weight class







https://www.glorykickboxing.com/fighters

your right, but thats from back in the day, things have changed since then, although the change has been relatively recent. Were now doing things the right, but its gonna take a generation or two to catch up. Americans will be on the map soon. Its already happening in MT now with guys like willy whipple.

I will add that I think another thing holding americans back is our culture, in regards to gyms, and how they are ran. Outside of a few top gyms, the majority of gyms in the US simply dont cater to fighters at that level. I know so many guys that fight on glory, or even WCK muay thai, that have to cross train at multiple different gyms to get the required training in. The american business model, and what works business wise for the gyms, is a set back as well IMO. Producing stables of fighters isnt how to make money for the gyms in the US, its cardio and kids programs.

 

[SandaKicker]

That is a compelling argument, but no. I say it because the mat wrestling in folkstyle that is nearly nonexistent in freestyle lends itself well to all of the various forms of submission grappling.

Just local off-season freestyle camps and tournaments in highschool. I really enjoyed starting periods on bottom and being able to work aggressively for reversals. Par terre is not for me.

I agree completely.

The vast majority of freestyle wrestler's who transition to MMA tend to get smashed, it's a steep learning curve to learn BJJ and striking from scratch. Folkstyle gives them a headstart on the ground that doesn't make it so bad.

 

[Cole train]

Its really eastern europe that dominates,

Their wako tournament teams are ridiculous

 

[-guerilla-]

I agree completely.

The vast majority of freestyle wrestler's who transition to MMA tend to get smashed, it's a steep learning curve to learn BJJ and striking from scratch. Folkstyle gives them a headstart on the ground that doesn't make it so bad.

give some examples of freestyle wrestlers who failed to transition to mma

perhaps you would be into this thread

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...restlers-in-the-ufc-past-and-present.3969399/

any theory on why folkstyle wrestlers get beat by freestyle wrestlers so often?

 

[-guerilla-]

Its really eastern europe that dominates,

Their wako tournament teams are ridiculous

jan plass was they guy that created most of Europes kickboxers in my day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Plas

vos gym was well established as well

 

[Cole train]

jan plass was they guy that created most of Europes kickboxers in my day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Plas

vos gym was well established as well

Yeah dutch used to be a force and the they are still good but the crown goes to ex soviet countries these days.

Even looking at the ammy muay thai championships in bangkok right now most are eastern euros in top positions.

(Amateur in rules only, most have fought pro and some have fought in glory for example)

 

[-guerilla-]

Yeah dutch used to be a force and the they are still good but the crown goes to ex soviet countries these days.

Even looking at the ammy muay thai championships in bangkok right now most are eastern euros in top positions.

(Amateur in rules only, most have fought pro and some have fought in glory for example)

how interesting

soviet bloc seemed way more into karate...but awesome boxers!!

 

[Cole train]

how interesting

soviet bloc seemed way more into karate...but awesome boxers!!

ukraine and belarus are countries where kickboxing/thaiboxing took off really well

the main difference is that there the goverment supports athletes so they can train full time they dont need a job like in western countries

for example this guy is supported by his goverment so he can train full time(he won his weightclass in the world championship this year and ha also beat ex lumpenee champ Khem sitsongpeenong who has fought in glory)

he beat my countrys best muay thai guy in first fights of the tournament

 

[-guerilla-]

ukraine and belarus are countries where kickboxing/thaiboxing took off really well

the main difference is that there the goverment supports athletes so they can train full time they dont need a job like in western countries

for example this guy is supported by his goverment so he can train full time(he won his weightclass in the world championship this year and ha also beat ex lumpenee champ Khem sitsongpeenong who has fought in glory)

he beat my countrys best muay thai guy in first fights of the tournament

yeah I remember a few good Russians back in the day but they were not the kind of force i expected them to be

such a shame that the USA treats all martial arts like a business and not a national sport!!

Japan and France in judo

USSR in everything

China in most

we just support boxing [kinda].no other combat sport

 

[SandaKicker]

any theory on why folkstyle wrestlers get beat by freestyle wrestlers so often?

Do you mean in international competition?

The Iranians etc. train in freestyle or Greco as kids whilst the Americans are training folk style which is essentially a different sport (not sure how big the differences are as I’ve only trained in freestyle myself).

I’m not sure if you mean in MMA.

That’s an interesting thread you have mentioned.

I think Karlos Vermola came from a Euro Freestyle wrestling background.

All I can see is I’ve seen a bunch of European national champion wrestlers or what ever fight on UK shows like cage warriors and get smashed. I don’t tend to remember their names but I have no bias.

As for a wrestler of the calibre of Yoel, sure he is successful, I don’t think that background is as good as folk style and he came from a boxing family.

 

[Cole train]

Do you mean in international competition?

The Iranians etc. train in freestyle or Greco as kids whilst the Americans are training folk style which is essentially a different sport (not sure how big the differences are as I’ve only trained in freestyle myself).

I’m not sure if you mean in MMA.

That’s an interesting thread you have mentioned.

I think Karlos Vermola came from a Euro Freestyle wrestling background.

All I can see is I’ve seen a bunch of European national champion wrestlers or what ever fight on UK shows like cage warriors and get smashed. I don’t tend to remember their names but I have no bias.

As for a wrestler of the calibre of Yoel, sure he is successful, I don’t think that background is as good as folk style and he came from a boxing family.

he has trouble keeping people down, he has good takedowns itself but not quite as good keeping them down like folkstyle guys

anyway this is kinda off topic lol