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lol not this again
What do you guys think of the Knees over toes guy ?
- Thread starter Mr Mojo Lane
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Yeah hilarious. Good comment bro.
You happen to catch the Mac Jones 32 inch vert during his pro day last week? What a stud athlete. Guess by the retarded chart and bars set by an argument over athleticism months ago, you must consider him to be a borderline nuclear athlete then.
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Get back to me when you're able to dunk
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Putting aside whether or not being able to dunk is impressive, which I would say that it is, his ability to dunk probably has nothing to do with his program. He's likely been able to dunk since his basketball days before doing any S&C at all. Taking someone who has a natural affinity for something and putting that front and center is a common marketing tool.
EDIT: Alright just watch this video:
He claims he went from a 20 inch vertical entering his twenties to a 40 inch vertical now entering his thirties. All by bending his knees and doing some leg curls lol.
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Yeah that was pretty much my point.
A. He's not a world class athlete and he's heavily implied he is or directly said it (I think?). Even if his vert was 40 inches, which I highly doubt, that doesn't make him one because he could be extremely average or below in every other area of athleticism.
B. I'm not saying nor do I think someone has to be world class in the art or sport or field they are working from (especially when we're talking physical, genetic limits). Because obviously - Cus D'Amato, various olympic/powerlifting programmers and coaches, Bill Belichick, etc. But again, KneesOverToes guys is neither an expert, but claims to be a stud basketball player trying to still make the NBA, nor has he really confirmed any success with his program or confirmed it actually works to x degree.
Him claiming, REPEATEDLY, about the "I was the worst athlete on my team, I had a 20 inch vertical, I couldn't even touch the rim" to dunking and "off all platforms" and having a 40 inch vert is a prime example too. Not sure how many videos you guys watched, but this dude was in my youtube rec awhileee go, and I've probably seen 10 or more videos? Not just a few. It's incessant how many times he repeats some lines like this one lol
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That's pretty comical how you're "tired of everything being put down and compared to the NFL combine" after immediately trying to talk shit and put me down in reference to a months old "debate" about athleticism and vertical jumping.
Maybe you missed my first post on this thread where I said some things KOT guy did seem interesting and may be, like the tibialis raise. Not everything he is promoting is bad, obviously, as he suggests you know, jumping. His idea of jumping of all platforms and landing in different ways rather than the same dominant way every time is interesting and may have merit. Who knows.
But obviously you didn't read that or are strawmanning or something, because I never put this guy down anymore than you did or 90% of people in this entire thread. Yet I go from someone you tried to shit on for basically no reason, to some neanderthal "bully" trying to shit on poor Snake oil Ben and comparing everything to that dreaded NFL combine. I got nothing against you, but fuck off that's pathetic. Don't try to talk shit to me then play the victim one post later. I'm down to be cordial but you're being nothing but a cunt to me, unprovoked.
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Lmao
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Sorry for putting you down, that was not my intention.
My dunking comment was in reference to what you wrote, how you're unimpressed with someone who can dunk because it doesn't look explosive and because you estimate that he's tall. Seems like an unnecessary comment coming from someone who cannot dunk. To me, it looks like his vert is at least close to 40 inches.
I'm with you on every other point.
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That wasn't really what I was saying and maybe the disconnect is that I've unfortunately seen 10+ of his videos and people on this thread have seen only a few, perhaps.
Yeah he can dunk and I can't. We both know that doesn't mean anything in terms of how legit his programming and ideology is.
I did the 10 seconds of research on my other post to look up where he actually did play college ball, because go watch his vids and you'll see the same lines repeated ad nauseam - "20 inch vertical, couldn't touch rim, least athletic kid on my college team, to 40 inch vertical, dunking on all platforms, still trying to make the NBA more athletic than ever at age 29-30+"
He says that almost every video. So I simply looked up where he played, which wasn't a real college it was a fucking JUCO school. What I think I said I was unimpressed with was his athleticism. If the videos he did play basketball, sure he looked "good" at the sport against YMCA guys I guess, highlights only, but he looked slow and not very quick. Not very athletic. Even his jumping looked slow kind of.
The fact that he can dunk and I can't doesn't mean he has a 40 inch vertical. I just sincerely doubt he does, he's definitely not a world class athlete. The NFL combine isn't some end all be all, it's simply one of the few events where top tier pro sports athletes actually test athleticism and actually give a fuck about it - because it directly impacts their money and draft position, significantly. NBA combine, really doesn't at all in that same way for example.
My point was, not that I am a better athlete or he is in general a terrible athlete necessarily, but that I don't think he's a great athlete or anything. And his height would matter, because if he's 6'3 or 6'4 he doesn't need to jump 40 inches to dunk at all, yet can still claim it to sell programs while never substantiating that claim, never testing it.
How hard would it be for him to take a video of himself doing a vertical jump test, hitting the little plastic windwill blinds shit, confirming his vertical jump, considering he claims 40 inches nearly every fucking video. Another analogy, it would be like a guy selling a powerlifting program claiming he benches 600 lbs raw at some crazy low BW, almost every single video, but never doing it? Maybe there's a video of him proving it but I've never seen it. (long post)
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I first heard about this guy from a track and sprint coach who I think is legit. Most of his gimmick is based on hype but maybe some of his programming is novel and legit?
Heres a quick summary of a podcast with the guy I was talking about and the kneesovertoes guy where he goes over his training system at the 26 minute mark.
https://www.just-fly-sports.com/podcast-148-ben-patrick/
And heres a transcript of the whole thing.
https://www.just-fly-sports.com/podcast-148-ben-patrick-podcast/
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I listened to it. He mentions 4 pillars of his program.
1. Relative strength to bodyweight
Well, obviously.
2. Build according to gravity
He didn't really expand on this. Not sure what he means.
2. Strength through wider ranges of motion
The argument he makes is that it accounts for more variables in sports. Well, as far as performance goes that depends on what you're doing. However being strong through flexibilty should theoretically reduce injury risk. At least that's the common conception. No issue with this other than perhaps time spent.
3. Scaleable exercises
I'm very much in favor of this.
He made a lot of wacky claims that on face of it are anecdotal and/or unfounded: His knees are "superhuman strong" at full extension. The stronger you are at full extension the less pressure goes into the joints. Hip dominant exercises are more likely to increase injury in athletes. His mom can run a marathon at 65 without any issue because of his program. Also says he's only had one athlete come in with feet as strong as his knees, whatever that means.
Notable exercises: Walking backwards with a sled, very deep lunges and squats, nordic hamstring curls, reverse curls and tibialis anterior raises.
What I like about it is the idea of it being scaleable, however I don't know how well that works in reality with cookie cutter programs. Him saying that you shouldn't do something that hurts is good, but it's also a way to prevent liability from adverse effects. I like that there's a greater focus on working more muscle groups across the ankle and knee joints. I like the backwards sled walking too because it's usually very easy to tolerate for almost everyone.
What I don't like is his wild and exaggerated claims. Where is the evidence that his method is better than everything else? He's a salesman, clearly. What gets my goat is the correlation-causation fallacy and the claim that because he doesn't have pain, then that proves it works for everyone. That's not how it works and anyone who works in rehab knows this. If someone is promising you a magical program as a panacea, they are being dishonest. So, it's not so much what he's selling that's bad, it's how he's selling it. He puts himself front and center, especially his vertical, however think about how many people have come before him who's been able to jump higher, been faster, been stronger, more robust, the list goes on, that has had wildly different regiments. Lastly, there's really not anything novel about his approach. It's been recycled many times. There's many qualified people out there who's training athletes at higher levels with results to show for it. .
Those are my thoughts. So, not entirely bad, some good stuff in there, but the hype is a sales gimmick.
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It's a terrible way to title it but I think this is referring to his idea of being strongest from the bottom up (ie ankles must be able to withstand the forces exerted at the knees and hips)
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That's what I thought as well. Again, it sounds nice and all, but he'd have to illustrate that 1) other programs don't address this, 2) the method he's using is doing this better than other methods, 3) that this needs particular attention in the first place and 4) that his outcomes doing this are superior to doing something else.
It's not that I disagree with the logic that you need strength throughout the chain. But if you're going to claim something is the bees knees and you've reinvented the wheel, have something more solid to back it up with. Who's to say that doing lunges, barefoot walking, calf raises, jump rope, running, sprinting, shuttle runs, multidirectional jump training, seated calf work, band work across the ankle joint, shortfoot exercises or a million other things couldn't produce similar or better results towards whatever goal you have? Is it even that important? The way he presents it, he makes it sounds like there's not a single strong or able bodied person out there outside of his program.
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He's created a problem for everyone but he's also the one with the solution. Pretty convenient.
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Kind of the gut impression I had but I am just a casual gym goer so I didn't have the knowledge to pin point exactly how his approach isn't magic/bulletproof program.
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Very convenient indeed.
I understand the excitement about trying something new with big promises, as a motivating factor. If you want to copy some of the stuff and see how it feels, I'd say go for it. Exercising and strength training is the path towards making your body more resilient, there's just nothing magical about his specific programming. Doesn't mean you can't steal an exercise or two.
D
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Those vids of people doing gym rings and rotating completely with shoulders then hang facing the ground, can feel the stabbing pain half way through rotation.
If he had a 20 inch vert and couldn't touch the rim, he's not even playing juco ball, where the athleticism is typically quite high. 40 inch vert...I played small college hoops and if you haven't been around guys being officially tested you don't realize how high a 32-34 inch vert actually is. So I guess the vert is just another one of those things we exaggerate on....
