UFC Fight Night - Sandhagen vs Dillashaw- Offical discussion

I'm passing on betting, but the old TJ still likely loses to Sandhagen. Its just a bad stylistic matchup for him unless he can get tds all over the place and/or hold top position. And this coming from someone who doesn't think TJ did roids other than the EPO he got caught for, and wouldn't argue with anyone who thinks hes the GOAT BW up til present day

What makes you think he wasn't juicing all along out of curiosity? Garbrandt was telling anyone who'd listen that it was a known thing at TAM that TJ was on the sauce. He was saying it way before TJ got busted. Now, prior to him getting caught I kinda dismissed it because Cody is a moron, sour grapes, etc. But man once he got busted, I kinda think it puts all those accusations in a different light. Esp when Cody then was saying "Well no shit, I saw him doing it for years and was telling you all this before..."
 
What makes you think he wasn't juicing all along out of curiosity? Garbrandt was telling anyone who'd listen that it was a known thing at TAM that TJ was on the sauce. He was saying it way before TJ got busted. Now, prior to him getting caught I kinda dismissed it because Cody is a moron, sour grapes, etc. But man once he got busted, I kinda think it puts all those accusations in a different light. Esp when Cody then was saying "Well no shit, I saw him doing it for years and was telling you all this before..."
Just determining what makes the most sense. Him never failing before, even on the retests USADA did of older samples after he failed the Cejudo fight, but then failing that one doesn't add up. Its not like USADA caught him on a random test, it was a weigh in day test that all fighter's do every fight. His reasoning on that new ESPN/Fight Pass doc about how the weight cut was killing him but he refused to pull out and/or not make weight makes a lot more sense to me. That was the most brutal i've ever seen anyone look cutting weight.

Yeah I don't blame anyone for thinking hes juiced before. The Garbrandt trash talk is damning in hindsight and solid support for that. But personally, I think it was just that. Trash talk. No one from TAM has ever repeated what Garbrandt said, inclined to believe it was some Diaz "you're on steroids" talk.
 
As Sandhagen approaches -200, is the general consensus that this is still right? I thought I recall Sandhagen saying his game was inspired by TJ?

Also, am I the only one having issues finding recent fights on ESPN+? I can't find some of Minner, Elkins, Yanez etc etc. If it's not that it's not on ESPN+, Fight Pass gives that stupid error of "Something went wrong".
 
As Sandhagen approaches -200, is the general consensus that this is still right? I thought I recall Sandhagen saying his game was inspired by TJ?

Also, am I the only one having issues finding recent fights on ESPN+? I can't find some of Minner, Elkins, Yanez etc etc. If it's not that it's not on ESPN+, Fight Pass gives that stupid error of "Something went wrong".
Try googling the fight. Example, if I type Minner vs Rosa into google, the link to the fight is like the 2nd result
 
What that TJ did makes you feel he's some kind of all-time stud that at his best runs through Sandhagen?

Or you just mean by your own eye test he looked that good?

I suppose it was the eye test. His loss to Cruz was a blemish on his record even though that loss was controversial. From the first Barao fight to when he ultimately loss to Cejudo, the way TJ was running through guys was just really impressive to me. There are guys who win; and then there are guys who win and really show they're levels above the other guys. I thought TJ was one of those guys.

Sandhagen is good but not great. The odds on this fight are really wide. If this is TJ from a few years ago I'd cap this fight TJ 1.44 odds/Sandhagen 2.75.

Should be a really fun scrap for as long as it lasts.
 
I suppose it was the eye test. His loss to Cruz was a blemish on his record even though that loss was controversial. From the first Barao fight to when he ultimately loss to Cejudo, the way TJ was running through guys was just really impressive to me. There are guys who win; and then there are guys who win and really show they're levels above the other guys. I thought TJ was one of those guys.

Sandhagen is good but not great. The odds on this fight are really wide. If this is TJ from a few years ago I'd cap this fight TJ 1.44 odds/Sandhagen 2.75.

Should be a really fun scrap for as long as it lasts.

Fair enough, I guess that's part of what makes it fun. That we can see things differently when we break then down.

I see TJ as a wrestler that made himself into a good boxer and one of the better BW's on the planet. Possibly with the help of juicing the whole way, but maybe not. I think his first win over Barao was incredible, but after that I think his legend grew mainly due to beating a great stylistic matchup in Cody twice. Cody who just wanted to brawl but didn't have the chin to do do it. But who still almost KO'd TJ but ran out of time in the round.

I'd cap Sandhagen at WORST evens vs the best version of TJ I've seen ( Barao 1).
 
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Fair enough, I guess that's part of what makes it fun. That we can see things differently when we break then down.

I see TJ as a wrestler that made himself into a good boxer and one of the better BW's on the planet. Possibly with the help of juicing the whole way, but maybe not. I think his first win over Barao was incredible, but after that I think his legend grew mainly due to beating a great stylistic matchup in Cody twice. Cody who just wanted to brawl but didn't have the chin to do do it. But who still almost KO'd TJ but ran out of time in the round.

I'd cap Sandhagen at WORST evens vs the best version of TJ I've seen ( Barao 1).

This fight will show us how legit Sandhagen is. Slipped up vs Aljo. Nice knockouts vs Moraes and Edgar.

Honestly - I don't know if this is justified - Sandhagen reminds me of Carlos Condit. Dangerous striker. Might be shit out of luck if you grapple him. But obviously he's much more dynamic than Carlos ever was.
 
Thoughts on a possible tj sub?
I actually dont hate TJ as a possible underdog this week he might do take downs as well.I do think Sandhagen might win this week for a possible title shot.
But i dont hate TJ as a possible underdog i see this fight ending in a Dec.
 
What do you think about the ME u3.5 at -165 odds sherbros?
 
Well, I finished fully taping Ladd-Chiasson. Despite my distaste for the polemical discussion, I initially came into the fight looking to bet Ladd. She is one of the three best wrestlers at 135 (her, Nunes, and Vieira) and has a good, if slightly overrated top game. Clinching with Chiasson isn't too difficult and in the past she has idiotically initiated herself, where Ladd's patented turning outside trip as soon as the S-grip should be successful, regardless of the ACL and MCL tear. Once on the ground, Ladd should beat her up. Even if she doesn't finish her, she should get takedowns again and again and dominate. Easy, right?

Well, that's the best-case scenario, but the more I think about it, the more other possibilities crop up.

And a lot of that has to do with Chiasson's fight against Reneau. Ripped straight from my notes; "Most recently, after stagnation, was much improved against Reneau, including a better left hook, much better defense, fighting smarter, at range, a better stance, an even more dangerous clinch striking game, and showing some nice BJJ from her back with a nifty sweep. Her cardio was better, too."

Even if we think the ACL and MCL tears and coming back don't hurt Ladd's takedowns and Chiasson hasn't improved in that regard, (fairly reasonable assumptions, to be fair) it's also reasonable to assume that Ladd will yet again struggle like hell to make 135, which is responsible for her weak chin and average cardio. And her defense, which is awful, hasn't improved in many fights.

Chiasson might be slower and less accurate than GDR, but she hits just as hard, has a better left hook, and an even more dangerous clinch striking game. There is absolutely a chance that Ladd gets caught early like she did against GDR, especially with Chiasson using her range more, and even if she doesn't, she could eat a huge elbow in the clinch or Chiasson's short right hook off the break.

But let's say Ladd avoids or eats all that and gets the takedown. What happens then? It's actually not so clear. I've always thought Chiasson was pretty good at getting back up; she has excellent butterfly hooks, and while she lacks a certain degree of natural agility, causing her to be slower in getting up from her back, she consistently gets up after takedowns, especially against opponents who aren't a big submission threat, which includes Ladd.

I also loved her use of a heel hook to sweep Reneau, which was gorgeous.

Reneau had pretty good jits herself, and Chiasson swept or got back up quickly immediately each time. Will this work against Ladd? Not necessarily; Ladd has very heavy hip pressure. But it's a possibility.

Furthermore, Ladd's top game is good, but against opponents with some actual jits themselves (Eubanks, Kunitskaya), she can't quite finish them. Which is where cardio comes in. Chiasson has had cardio struggles of her own, but looked a lot better in that regard against Reneau, including a strong round 3. Ladd's grappling weakens marginally in round 2 (although not as quickly as with Eubanks, and at about the same rate as Kunitskaya's) and by round 3, she can't get takedowns anymore. Is Chiasson's cardio good enough to win round 3, and perhaps make for a close round 2?

It's certainly possible.

There are one too many question marks and assumptions for me to play Ladd at -175, although there is certainly a chance she dominates. (For the record, I would want Ladd at better than -150, at the very least)
 
Well, I finished fully taping Ladd-Chiasson. Despite my distaste for the polemical discussion, I initially came into the fight looking to bet Ladd. She is one of the three best wrestlers at 135 (her, Nunes, and Vieira) and has a good, if slightly overrated top game. Clinching with Chiasson isn't too difficult and in the past she has idiotically initiated herself, where Ladd's patented turning outside trip as soon as the S-grip should be successful, regardless of the ACL and MCL tear. Once on the ground, Ladd should beat her up. Even if she doesn't finish her, she should get takedowns again and again and dominate. Easy, right?

Well, that's the best-case scenario, but the more I think about it, the more other possibilities crop up.

And a lot of that has to do with Chiasson's fight against Reneau. Ripped straight from my notes; "Most recently, after stagnation, was much improved against Reneau, including a better left hook, much better defense, fighting smarter, at range, a better stance, an even more dangerous clinch striking game, and showing some nice BJJ from her back with a nifty sweep. Her cardio was better, too."

Even if we think the ACL and MCL tears and coming back don't hurt Ladd's takedowns and Chiasson hasn't improved in that regard, (fairly reasonable assumptions, to be fair) it's also reasonable to assume that Ladd will yet again struggle like hell to make 135, which is responsible for her weak chin and average cardio. And her defense, which is awful, hasn't improved in many fights.

Chiasson might be slower and less accurate than GDR, but she hits just as hard, has a better left hook, and an even more dangerous clinch striking game. There is absolutely a chance that Ladd gets caught early like she did against GDR, especially with Chiasson using her range more, and even if she doesn't, she could eat a huge elbow in the clinch or Chiasson's short right hook off the break.

But let's say Ladd avoids or eats all that and gets the takedown. What happens then? It's actually not so clear. I've always thought Chiasson was pretty good at getting back up; she has excellent butterfly hooks, and while she lacks a certain degree of natural agility, causing her to be slower in getting up from her back, she consistently gets up after takedowns, especially against opponents who aren't a big submission threat, which includes Ladd.

I also loved her use of a heel hook to sweep Reneau, which was gorgeous.

Reneau had pretty good jits herself, and Chiasson swept or got back up quickly immediately each time. Will this work against Ladd? Not necessarily; Ladd has very heavy hip pressure. But it's a possibility.

Furthermore, Ladd's top game is good, but against opponents with some actual jits themselves (Eubanks, Kunitskaya), she can't quite finish them. Which is where cardio comes in. Chiasson has had cardio struggles of her own, but looked a lot better in that regard against Reneau, including a strong round 3. Ladd's grappling weakens marginally in round 2 (although not as quickly as with Eubanks, and at about the same rate as Kunitskaya's) and by round 3, she can't get takedowns anymore. Is Chiasson's cardio good enough to win round 3, and perhaps make for a close round 2?

It's certainly possible.

There are one too many question marks and assumptions for me to play Ladd at -175, although there is certainly a chance she dominates. (For the record, I would want Ladd at better than -150, at the very least)
lmfao @ interjecting earlier talking about "bOtH sIdEs hYpErBoLiC" and then spewing nonsense, only for "Well now I just finished my tape"
 
Aight captain my b but had to laugh at the guy who was demeaning with garbage reasoning who then goes "Just finished tape"

To be fair I will often comment on fights going off memory only and then watch some tape as the fights approach and it either confirms my thoughts or I see something that I didn't remember and have an altered view. Not even necessarily switching sides or anything drastic, just smaller stuff that I'd forgotten.
 
For those who are genuinely curious, the only difference between when I first wrote about Chiasson vs. Ladd and "fully finished tape" is that I closely analyzed Chiasson-Reneau (I had watched it casually before), rewatched a few specific sequences in Ladd-Kunitskaya, and re-read my copious notes on Chiasson and Ladd. Each of which reduced my confidence in Ladd winning.

I've seen every pro fight from both Chiasson and Ladd (and a few of their amateur fights), have taped them both multiple times, and have won multiple units on each, with my only loser being 2u on Chiasson ITD against Lansberg at near-evens.

Of course, everyone is free to decide whether they find my analysis more or less convincing than the ramblings of a wannabe tout who spends most of his time here getting into idiotic, pages-long flamewars, in some cases because he lacks basic reading comprehension. (Like with mkess101)
 
You can typically tell who the young guys are and who the old ones are around here.
Respect the geezers. We may know a little something
 
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